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Discussion in 'Reader Polls' started by Ash28M, Oct 16, 2008.
Lol heterophobia, much like reverse racism, isn't actually a thing.
Lolll I loved the roast of Ann Coulter.
In the words of the beautiful Megyn Kelly, "that's a dodge!"
Since you have no rebuttal to the topic at hand, looks like I win
Not really. When it becomes satire, then its a thing:
Not that I think Maniac was heterophobic. I was only pointing out the flawed logic of interpreting Haute Tension tha way.
It's the first I'm hearing it. But heterophobia doesn't actually exist. That's satire lol.
Did anyone say straight people are discriminated against more than gays? No. Jesus fucking christ.
It's kind of like the 'All Lives Matter' response to 'Black Lives Matter.'
I'm gay. I'm priviliged to live in a country where being gay does not expose you to significant risk or discrimination. A few years ago, a baker fired an employee because he found out the employee was gay. The baker got a hefty fine. Here in Denmark, Muslims as a whole have it worse, because a minority of the Muslims living here sympathise with terrorists and have un-democratic views. And some people have a hard time distinguishing between the "good" Muslims and the "bad" ones, so they meet them all with distrust and poorly veiled hostility. And when you meet someone like that, that's what they give you back. I also believe that if you're trying to find signs of persecution, you might find them even where they don't exist. It's the fine balance between being blind to inequality and seeing ghosts, if that makes sense.
Thread: Political correctness (was: Haute Tension (2003) VS Maniac (1980))
Seriously: you can't keep feigning outrage or shock over everything I say. You'll blow a phony gasket and everyone will see you're not the relaxed guy you pretend to be. Besides... you're lecturing someone who has admitted from Day 1 I'm not relaxed. How do you keep thinking you're going to win one over on me? You are still here, still bragging about how your life is so much better. You spend more time on this board than I do. You do. Fact. The guy who went on and on about how you're married to such a beautiful woman and I must live in my parents' basement. *I* must live in a "creepy basement" because your life is great... Is that what you tell everyone online? You're not a very original kind of guy.
I still leave this board and have a life. You're the one following me around, replying to every post I make. The guy with so much to live for.
Who the hell do you think you're fooling?
Well, I didn't want to gouge/irritate you anymore but I was on the verge of suggesting many times that there seems to be a tangible undercurrent of "don't upset the straights, we need them on our side" to a lot of your posts in this debate.
We'd all like things to be fair. But that is not the world we're living in. I'll stop repeating this truth when I know more straights speaking out on homophobia, more whites fighting racism, more men calling themselves feminists.
So: nice try, Kim B. I've run into a million minority apologists for majority pigs. They all start looking like they're just desperate to be in the in-crowd.
But Kim Bruum wasn't being apologist. I (also being a gay man myself) actually agree completely with what was said.
Nobody said "white lives matter" until there was Black Lives Matter, nobody championed "straight pride" until there was gay pride, and nobody cared about "white history month" until we had Black History Month.
In many cases people never cared about these issues before and the only reason they're brought up now is because their cozy little bubble is about to burst these issues make them uncomfortable. And a lot of it stems from plain ignorance. And sometimes people just can't see it any other way because they are so accustomed to THEIR way of life. And it's not always because they're bad people, some people are just so far removed from it, so it's important to educate without getting too angry. Because let's face it, we DO need heterosexual allies. And it's not about being apologist. They make up over 90% of the earth's population! We NEED them on our side. It can be frustrating I get it, but calling them pigs is not the right way to go about it. It only fuels the fire.
I said heterophobia wasn't a thing because while sure, straight people can be subjected to discrimination or prejudice, nobody has ever been killed or discriminated against FOR BEING STRAIGHT. Homophobia is institutionalized, much like racism. People are taught to hate gays, they were seen as "the other". You can have prejudice towards straight people, absolutely, but it isn't heterophobia.
Anyway, still love you guys!
Lol I don't even know what to say to that. Everything is going to be OK little fella. Hang in there.
I would like to say, you're right. I'm on here a lot and will continue to be. Fact of the matter is I'm a supervisor in the financial services industry. I got 10 people working under me. I've been with the company for 14 years since I was 18 and I've gotten really really good at one thing. Delegating. I literally work about 45 mins a day during the 8+ hours I'm in the office. Soooooo yeah, I'll be here.
I honestly got no problem with you, bud. You're not the coolest cat on the block but I got nothing against anybody. Fact of the matter is I'm a wise ass and you just simply put shit up on a tee for me, with your rambling postings. I try not to be mean spirited, I really do. But my sarcastic prick side is tough to hide from time to time. I really mean no harm..... its all good.
Thanks, Matt. I was debating with myself whether or not I should explain myself, but decided it was pointless.
DVD-fanatic, we both hold equality as an ideal. If your experience has tought you that racists, homophobes, and bigots are most easily won over to your cause by verbally assaulting them, then your argumentative tactics make sense. My experience has taught me that being open and friendly - and listening as well as talking - is far more likely to get someone who disagrees with you to see things from your perspective.
Here we go, again! You just put straight people on a pedestal. You just framed the entire relationship between gays and straights as not equal. You're saying they are above us, not equal to us, and that's why they need to be appeased instead of challenged.
I don't think you necessarily think they are better, but you are telling me they have power over us and we shouldn't ever point out that it's not right. They already give us shit when we complain that things aren't equal. Just like Black Lives Matter. So they know things aren't equal and don't care. That's what happens when you try to keep a system of superiority in-place instead of trying to break it.
You've apparently missed the point of what I've been saying entirely.
The relationship between gays and straights is NOT equal. But Kim's also not saying they're above us. Where did you get that from? That's not what's being said.
Yes it's true that heterosexuals are the ones responsible for homophobia. Obviously. But is it also not our job to educate them as well? They've (not all, mind you) been fed this idea and way of life that perpetuates homophobia and promotes heteronormativity. And while it is also up to straight people to call out homophobia, it is up to us as well to listen to what they have to say and explain our perspective and experience.
There was an interview with a former CIA agent who dealt with terrorist intel during the Bush administration and she said the biggest problem is that as enemies, they're unwilling to listen to each other. They both think they're the "good guys". She said that one prisoner had put it in such a way that it completely changed her perspective on the conflict. He said that America makes all these Hollywood films like Star Wars and they're often about a small group of rebels or thugs trying to overthrow an evil overpowering empire. He said to us, we're the rebels and America is the evil empire. That's how they're viewed in the Middle East.
And I'm not comparing heterosexuals to terrorists, but there's a parallel here. Gays represent a minority and we're up against the heterosexual majority. Fighting back with the same mentality isn't going to get us anywhere. If we respond to bigotry with hatred in return, where does that leave us?
Certainly they need to be challenged. But there's ways of going about doing it. Yes as gays we've literally had to fight for equal rights, because some people are unwilling to listen. But there are many who are, and heterosexuals have more power in doing away with homophobia when they start calling out other heteros for their bigotry than we do by name calling them. If we engage in a meaningful discussion, we might be able to find the source of the problem. Only then can we work to fix it.
First off, to clarify, my use of the word "pigs" was referring to any case of a majority group being bigoted toward minorities. (It gets tiring to continue making the list: black, women, trans, gay, Muslim, etc etc in every post referencing majority bigotry.) I stand by my implication that bigotry is the action of a pig but don't try to tell me I just called all straight people pigs. You know I defended Argento against your claims that he is sexist. Remember? I couldn't love horror without loving straight people. You know I'm not stupid.
Secondly: I voted your post a Like because of a completely separate point you were making, highlighted by "Nobody said "white lives matter" until there was Black Lives Matter, nobody championed "straight pride" until there was gay pride, and nobody cared about "white history month" until we had Black History Month" and "I said heterophobia wasn't a thing because while sure, straight people can be subjected to discrimination or prejudice, nobody has ever been killed or discriminated against FOR BEING STRAIGHT. Homophobia is institutionalized, much like racism. People are taught to hate gays, they were seen as "the other". You can have prejudice towards straight people, absolutely, but it isn't heterophobia."
Those statements are exactly in-line with what I'm saying.
But, after that is where we differ.
I know I shouldn't do this... But it's never stopped me before.
That, up there, takes on a frighteningly similar meaning if you switch "gay" to "black."
If you were talking about the issue of racial profiling and cops killing black people, you just kind of said black people are doing the worst thing by protesting. Don't protest because it only makes white people angry and you need them on your side. They need racists on their side. (And I'm not saying white = inherently racist, but it's a fact that white = majorly blind to the impact of all forms of racially motivated injustices.)
Are you really comfortable trying to make this same argument with a race that you aren't? Or a gender that you aren't? Etc. I don't feel personally victimized by anyone on this board. I don't even feel Natas or Mok are homophobes. This deflection has merely been convenient in discrediting my harsh opinion. But the greater issue still stands in relation to straights and gays. Telling me to cool it really is the same as saying I'm not entitled to my anger. And, it goes somewhere. All anger has to go somewhere. If I don't tell people off for taking advantage of majority privileges, I take that out on you. Or Kim. Or myself. Or my loved ones. On someone who doesn't need to hear it / deal with it.
I am white. I have listened to a great damn deal of black anger. And sometimes it made me cry. It always made me feel bad. Sometimes it made me angry and want to curse out the person talking. But, that's not their problem. They aren't doing the wrong thing. I have to learn to deal with my reactions, to learn that how I feel is not something I can use to re-write or talk over the voices of people who've experienced racism.
What would you have done? You would have said it isn't my fault. I'm not a racist, I don't hate black people, I would do anything to correct the injustice that angered this black person so much. (Of course, then what you've said here starts to look like you're saying a black person would be in the wrong for saying things that bothered me. Instead of recognizing that how I feel is irrelevant and needs to be ignored in the discussion.) I don't actively express racist sentiment. But... that does not change the fact that I come from the system that creates racism and the power that oppresses black people. And I support that system without trying. And every time that I do, it is an injustice. I don't mean to be, but I'm just as bad as someone who uses racial slurs, or attacks a person in public for being black. Because cooperating with the system gets black people killed.
Inaction itself is often as bad as the people using bigoted language. So... this is a pretty damn complicated issue. Sure. But, you are kind of claiming that the strides we've made as gay people are the 'gains' of straight people seeing the light. (Because we didn't treat them like blacks treat whites- screaming in their faces, starting street fires and looting businesses, questioning their authority.) How do you really know that it's even possible for straight people to care about us? How do you really know that how far we've gotten... isn't just straight people, with their superior influence and power, nodding along to whatever to shut us up? So they don't feel guilty anymore? Any minority deserves more than people telling us we are equal. Words don't always match up with actions. Minorities get a shitload of empty promises fed to them.
The actual path to liberating anyone sexually is the simplest fucking thing on Earth: recognizing that there is no gay or straight. That all sexuality is fluid, just like gender. That's the truth, but we're never going to get there. Because we compromised. Because we recognize institutionalized superiority of heterosexuals over gays and trans. After that, whenever you say "we DO need them," you give them that power to only ever use us. Never, ever, to see us as equals. If you believe we need them, they don't need us too / we don't need each other equally, we'll never be free as gays and trans people. That's a fact. It really is. No matter how gingerly the conversation goes. No matter how much you lighten the language and try to be rational.