salo criterion collection

Discussion in 'General' started by bigmix007, Feb 16, 2008.

  1. dwatts

    dwatts New Member

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    Rhett - it's about the film, the complete film. You're not going to tell the whole impact from a tiny clip of a few seconds. There are many films that may benefit from a snip here or there, but as has always been the case with DVD - people generally want the most complete print of films. They generally don't want cut versions, or at the very least, they want to know they're getting a cut version. It's simple really. Still, I'm surprised you saw all that from what amounts to a poor Google clip. Personally I think you've just gotten used to seeing it cut, but that's just my view - and it serves as another excuse to defend Criterion. Maybe the film is better with the scene cut, that's a matter of opinion, there are plenty of people who'd suggest other scenes being cut would make the film better too. So why stop with this one scene?

    Even Chaoster, who saw this in the theater, has gone on record as saying he's seen it there. I've seen this film theatrically with it there. No conspiracy. I bet that if we'd known it was going to be so difficult for these so called film scholars to figure it out, we'd have invited them along. :D

    And no-one has yet seen the new Bfi disc, so discussion on quality issues is, once again, a reflexive, and defensive move on your part. To suggest "distractingly out of place because of the glaring difference in condition" is dishonest - you don't know that, and have no way of knowing it. You have no idea on how it will look. It's this kind of speculation that Criterion have indulged in to cover their tracks. In fact, you've done nothing more in this thread that defend Criterion and suggest it's the version to get - when you've only just seen a (very poor) copy of the scene, and not seen the Bfi release. You've made up your mind without seeing it, now that's clever. Doesn't really make things very balanced on your part - one assumes you actually know about what you write - but I guess we can all speculate. For the record, I guess it's possible the Bfi copy will be in black and white, and only run to one reel. It's possible. Doubtful though. :D

    Still, you are free to buy the cut version. Fortunately, I'm free to buy the full version. What's important is that people make informed buying decisions. I suggest people buy the uncut version of this film, and in hi-def if they have capability. At the very least, they can then make their own decisions about the validity of the scene. Fans of the film will want to see it.

    Again - this is a rather poor comment, it barely reaches the level of crediblity of tabloid journalism, a little disappointing from someone like yourself, but oh well. Bfi have the full print, not the cut one (even Criterion admit they've had this since 2001 in the article linked to. :D). That's fact. Rather than throw around comments such as this, I think we'll stick to the facts, don't you? They've said they're releasing the full print, Criterion mention it themselves.... simply as.

    You've turned into a Criterion apologist, and that's fine. As with all similar discussion on this site about new releases, it's just important that readers can make an informed decision. I really don't care which version people buy, I know which *I'll* buy, because hi-def and uncut beats SD and cut for me - others might feel differently, and that's fine.

    This scene, at the very least, should have been an extra on the Criterion release. The fact is, they don't have the scene because they couldn't be bothered to do the research, or pay the money, to have it. Otherwise, on a disc that is supposed to be exhaustive, how do we explain its complete absence - let alone having it missing from the film? Is this scene so flawed it didn't even warrant as an extra? Would it injure the film even as a "deleted scene" on the disc? That's just silly, imo. They haven't got it because they didn't bother to go get it - they took the new master they were handed, and want to put that out with the extras they had in hand. No additional work. There can be no other explanation of its complete absence- even from the extras.

    But yeah - you can have your cut print, and the Criterion brand. I have no issue with that. It's just important that people know the differences. That's all.

    Come to think of it - when there were insert shots into Zombi 3 with horrendous quality, it sure didn't make me rush out and buy a cut version, so I'm very confident things will work out here - since the cut footage from the Criterion didn't look all that bad in the last Bfi release, let alone now it's had additional work done on it.

    My guess? Criterion ship you free discs for review and you don't want to upset them. I have no idea, but that's my guess based on what I've read here in this case. Generally I read a lot of sense about such things from you, but in this case, you're being inconsistent - defending films being cut, defending DVD companies who can't even be bothered to get a scene we all know is freely out there because it would have cost money - even as an extra.... As I say, odd. So, I assume it's one freebie too many.

    ps: The scene in question was in the last Bfi release of this film - and while that version won't match the current releases, it was no worse at that time to the rest of their release. At least the old release would sure have made a nice extra.... pity but Criterion buyers will have to make do with youtube.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2008
  2. rhett

    rhett Administrator

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    I criticized Criterion in the post prior, and they haven't sent me screeners in some time, so I don't know where that conflict of interest pot shot came from. Code Red sends me screeners too, did I praise the interlacing?

    You're accusing me of making uninformed statements when here you continue to assert that Criterion did no research, when it's pretty clear from their blog they did more than that. I'd say locating the original IP would be bottom line, but they made the effort to correspond with several other Pasolini experts, including BFI and the Pasolini estate. That's not doing your homework?

    I am not dogging the BFI transfer without having seen it, I'm simply stating the inevitable. If that extra scene is not in the IP, it is going to be of lesser quality. BFI might do a bang up job restoring it, but the fact is it's going to be sourced from a copy one step further down the chain of transfer. That's a fact, and there's something that can help the informed make a decision.

    So you're going with the BFI, no question. What about the reviews stating that the Criterion subtitles are a big improvement over BFI's? Does that not matter to you at all? What if the sound was better? Clearly we're dealing in greys.

    I'm definitely not pro-Criterion, I'm just against writing them off entirely because of the exclusion of one ten second line reading. BFI discs are great, I own several and wouldn't be upset at all if I had their SALO disc, but I'm not about to herald one over the other when it's clear both have their benefits.

    I think staunchly labeling one disc "cut" and the other "uncut" is what is the most troubling. I'd say labels like "regular" and "extended" have more relevance in light of everything.
     
  3. dwatts

    dwatts New Member

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    I concede - they did some research. However, they asked some very ill-informed people who are supposed to be experts. They act as though the scene in question came from outer space, no-one seems to know where it's from. Yet members of HorrorDVDs knew - and there was a disc with it on that's 7 years old. What's more, the article they posted is very shifty indeed, and doesn't have a quote from the people we know have the scene. And then they show the scene! So it IS there. Just not on the Criterion disc - even as an extra. Strange.
    Can you link me to a review of the new Bfi - because in all honesty - I've not read any at this time.

    Well, Pasolini put a scene in, it was cut out, and not restored by Criterion. It was restored by Bfi. So I don't consider it a matter of semantics. We often talk about missing scenes from films on here - and it's pretty black and white in this case, imo.

    Others might feel differently, but at least they're informed.
     
  4. rhett

    rhett Administrator

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    Yeah, but what if it was Pasolini who cut it out? There's extended cuts of PET SEMETARY TWO and CREEPSHOW floating around too, are the theatrical prints cut? Should we be writing to Warner and Paramount about this oversight? They are nowhere to be found in any of the special features (as if there are any in the first place) either. THE SHINING, again, was released in theaters with an additional afterward following the picture dolly. Can we call the print on DVD now cut? Rough cuts exist in any art form (sketches, jam sessions) and so to label one version of a film definitive and the other compromised is to ignore the nature of the medium.

    Was it "restored" by BFI, or did it just happen to be the print they had available to them? Are they flipping you freebies for your blog? :D
     
  5. The Chaostar

    The Chaostar Johnny Hallyday forever

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    Well...
    ...I will shed some light into this. Not now though.

    Saw the film twice in cinemas.
    Once, in Rome, and I remember the name of the cinema
    It was named CAPRANICA, and I could never forget the name because Kapranos is MY name.
    The second time it was in Greece when it was re-issued, in 1997.
    The print was brand and sparkling new. And the poem was in both times. The greek distributor is a friend of mine. On Monday I will ask them where did they get their print from, even though I remember that their posters had the UNITED ARTISTS logo on them.

    What can I say? It the only version I know. Not an extended one. The full version.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2008
  6. KamuiX

    KamuiX The Eighth Samurai

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    Such fuss over Pasolini's worst film :p
     
  7. rhett

    rhett Administrator

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    Hey, if Accattone were getting the same treatment, you can bet I'd be just as vocal. It's in my nature to refute everything that dwatts says. That's who I am. :D
     
  8. DeathDealer

    DeathDealer I Inhale Horror

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    Very interesting discussion.
     
  9. dwatts

    dwatts New Member

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    The Bfi used the same new print as Criterion - they simply took the time to track down the cut footage, and to put it back in. Criterion did not. It was cut AFTER the film was initially released, and is now back where it belongs.

    Criterion couldn't even be bothered to track it down to include it as an extra. And then they put a blog up claiming it's from Mars (from what I can understand) and that none of their experts knew anything about it - when they knew full well the Bfi had put it out on DVD seven years ago.

    I guess calling the Bfi was a little too much research for their "experts". :D

    You're not alone. :lol:

    But hey, why be so defensive that you prefer a cut film? Be proud. :D

    Now, what was it about those subs? Would love to read how the Criterion's subs are "better".
     
  10. The Chaostar

    The Chaostar Johnny Hallyday forever

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    Well, here's the news.

    The greek distributing company AMA FILMS bought the rights - and the print - from the Hollywood Class Collection of the British Division of United Artists.

    Hey, whatever that means.

    It was easy to find out though...
     
  11. indiephantom

    indiephantom Horny Spirit

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    As someone generally impressed with this film, I'm tempted by the new CC. I think I'll hold out for a blu-ray, though. I have the old LD version, but if I see it cheap I'll grab it.
     
  12. Number Six

    Number Six I am not a number...

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    Here's what caught my eye from that Critertion blog:

    Did BFI-guy just admit to Criterion-guy that the new BFI discs won't include the poem scene after all? Am I reading this wrong?
     
  13. dwatts

    dwatts New Member

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    I think you're reading it just the way the biased, and incomplete, Criterion blog want you to read it. The scene will be there.
     
  14. RJ Fielder

    RJ Fielder Member

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    A poster on CriterionForum.org who received a screener of the new BFI disc confirmed that the poem scene is still present on the new disc, albiet taken from a different print. Here's what the BFI booklet says about it:

     
  15. ReelFear

    ReelFear New Member

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    The new Criterion DVD looks great. Blows away the previously released Laserdisc and DVD. Finally there's some color!
     
  16. DeathDealer

    DeathDealer I Inhale Horror

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    Lets not be quick to make rash and quick judgements. Look where that got us last time.

    Don't be so sure Dwatts, no one will officially know until the release comes out.
     
  17. The Chaostar

    The Chaostar Johnny Hallyday forever

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  18. The Chaostar

    The Chaostar Johnny Hallyday forever

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    Oh and I see a United Artists remark on the opening UK credits for the Blu-Ray, so I was right!
     
  19. dwatts

    dwatts New Member

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    Would I have lied? In your eye naysayers. ;)

    Criterion don't always win.... Nice. :)
     
  20. indiephantom

    indiephantom Horny Spirit

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    Sucks that it is REGION B only, though. Was really hoping that wouldn't happen.:(
     

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