elephant - brilliant!

[marioscido]

I saw 'Elephant' a few days ago and it floored me. IMO, it is by far the most original film to come out of the US this year. It is also one of the scariest films I've seen in a while. Van Sant has created a small poetic masterpiece with this film. Basically, the film is a series of tracking shots through school corridors and other typical high school locations that are brilliantly woven together. The film is an exercise in pacing; it is very powerful because it constantly brings you to the edge of violence and then takes you back to revisit intimate moments from different perspectives. The film doubles back on itself and revisits incidental moments just before the explosion of violence like a person trying to decipher a puzzle. But there are no quick fix answers here, no finger pointing, only layers of time bound together by a memory of violence. Brilliant!

Anyone see this yet?

[Ash28M]

I have been dying to watch this ever since i missed it at the Toronto Film fest. Where did you see it?

[marioscido]

It has been playing here in Montréal for a few weeks; it's showing in a couple theatres. It must be released in Toronto as well? The Carlton maybe?

[Ash28M]

It has been playing here in Montréal for a few weeks; it's showing in a couple theatres. It must be released in Toronto as well? The Carlton maybe?

Thanks i'm going to see if i can find a theatre it's playing at.

[Alien Redrum]

Caught the trailer for this a couple weeks ago.

The movie looks intense as hell and I can't wait to see it.

[KR~!]

I can't wait for it to be released on DVD ;)

It's gotten great reviews.

[rhett]

I wish this would come to Calgary...


I've been waiting to see this movie forever. I've been following it for close to a year now, it looks just fantastic. I hope Van Sant gets some recognition come awards time. Regardless of whether or not you like his films, you've got to admit he is one of the most original and daring filmmakers in the business. As bad as it was, making a shot for shot remake of PSYCHO takes balls, and from the sounds of it, so does making a movie like ELEPHANT.

[Ash28M]

Thanks marioscido, it looks like it's playing at the Cummberland theatre here in Toronto. I am going to have to check this out on Friday forsure.

[marioscido]

I wish this would come to Calgary...
I've been waiting to see this movie forever. I've been following it for close to a year now, it looks just fantastic. I hope Van Sant gets some recognition come awards time. Regardless of whether or not you like his films, you've got to admit he is one of the most original and daring filmmakers in the business. As bad as it was, making a shot for shot remake of PSYCHO takes balls, and from the sounds of it, so does making a movie like ELEPHANT.

I haven't been able to get myself to see the 'Psycho' remake. And I'm not vey interested in Van Sant's more mainstream fare, like 'Finding Forrester.' But I do want to see 'Gerry,' which was released here last year. Unfortunately, I never got around to seeing it. Many have written about the structural similarities between 'Elephant' and 'Gerry' - especially the us of long tracking shots.

Has anyone seen 'Gerry'?

[DeepDownTraumaHound]

elephant was not all that i'd hoped, but it is original and very well acted, nonetheless. And very frightening at times. Worth the watch.
I really liked Gerry a lot. You need to have a seriously open mind if you're going to get through it, but it is a damn good movie. very surreal.

[The Chaostar]

Mario, there is a heavy dose of Antonioni (or - to push it even further - Angelopoulos and Bela Tar) influences in Gerry. It is a great film indeed but also a film in which the viewer must dive to get the real feel of it (much like Dumont's Twentynine Palms - one of the best but also most difficult films I've seen this year)
I was also stunned by Elephant. The 1.33 photography (of fellow greek Haris Savides who also shot Gerry) is outstanding and the use of sound is genious.


SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

I also thought that when Van Sant tries to "explain" the motives of his killer (nazis on tv, easy to buy guns, violent videogames, homosexuality) he does it simply to mock us, to make a fool of us. Like "hey, this could be the reason, or this, or this...".

END OF SPOILER


I tracked down a cartoon named AN ELEPHANT NEVER FORGETS, filmed in 1935.
In this film, a collection of animals goes to school; their teacher, a goose, asks them several questions, during which time an ape, sitting behind an elephant, keeps tormenting the elephant. The teacher leaves the room, putting a turtle in charge. While she's gone, things go fine for a while, but the ape starts an all-out book tossing brawl. As the teacher returns, everyone suddenly stops, and although the room is a shambles, she congratulates them on behaving and dismisses them for the day. On the way home, the elephant (who kept reminding us that he never forgets) finally takes revenge on the ape (synopsis from IMDB, downloaded the film from WinZip).

A lot of people try to figure out what the title means in Elephant.

Well, I believe that ELEPHANT is, first of all, a film about memory.
Don't we often say about someone that he has the memory of an Elephant?
Hence the use of shots of the same events (we remember the SOUND of the sequence that we saw 20 minutes back when it repeats it self from a different prespective).
The killers are also driven by memories. Memories of abuse and hatred. They are taking their revenge from the principal (who - we understand - treated them badly), the girls that laughed at them or even the outcasts (the girl in the library) because she Reminds them of themselves.
And of course these are events that we must never forget. It works better than trying to explain them.

My 2 cents.

P.S. I'd like to hear your comments on that.

[marioscido]

Chaostar – I’m glad you are on this Forum; I really appreciate your insights. I think you are right on with respect to ‘Elephant’ being about memory. I have already stated that it is about layers of time bound together by a memory of violence.

But also, remember that there are elephants in room of the young killer; they can be seen on his wall and bedspread as he is playing the piano. Van Sant seems to be identifying the elephant theme with him specifically, with his interests, and ultimately, with his acts. There are multiple ways on interpreting this, but for me, the image that comes to mind is a famous South Asian parable that is used in the Islamic, Buddhist, and Hindu contexts. Here it is rendered by Jon Geoffrey Saxe (1816-1887):

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!”

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, “Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!”

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake!”

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
“ ‘Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

The point of the story is quite obvious, but in light of the ways in which many have tried to understand the Columbine shootings, I think Van Sant is saying that we have approached the elephant blind. In other words, we have approached the problem by pointing the finger at Marilyn Manson, guns, video games, etc, without trying to understand the larger picture, which is a big and complex elephant.

[The Chaostar]

Hmm... Very intersting remarks Mario.
Jean Renoir used to say that a film where everyone understands the same things, is a bad film and Elephant sure ain't one of them.

[Ash28M]

Just came back from watching this and you guys are spot on. The film was great, I thought there was a couple of decisions made by the director that you could debate whether or not they were necessary. Overall though an original brilliant film, Filled with a lingering feel of dread and anticipation that something bad was about to happen at anytime. I'm definitely getting this DVD when it comes out.

[rhett]

I saw it last night, and it was definitely the most original film of the year and one of the best too. Its pacing is fascinating...it captures the mundane throughout, and even the inevitable shooting is rendered cold, unaffecting and loose. The movie seems to be a conscious exercise in demonstrating that although we see this kind of stuff on the news, we really know nothing about it.

In fact, Van Sant's film is often a big cheat...its characters, despite some intimate scenes, are given no real character grounding at all. Everyone just kind of exists in the film without us knowing their motivations or traits. And with the photography itself, the endless (and beautiful) pans of the school almost always focus on the characters' backs with everything else around them out of focus. So like the South Asian parable, we only get to see a small fragment of the school life. Van Sant shows us the school for nearly 80 minutes, yet when it is all over we hardly know or see anything. Apparently in this school students just walk around and leave whenever they please, never really going to class at all (only one small scene in a formal classroom is in the film). That is the point though, to show us how we really know nothing about the high school life, despite everything we've seen on TV (also framed in 1.33:1).

It is not a perfect film but it tries damn hard to be, and Van Sant's style is quite intruiging. Using slow motion scenes (which really are arbitrary) and 360 degree pans, he seems to want to give a complete picture of the school life. Yet at the same time he uses highly stylized soft-focus shots to show the viewer next to nothing. There is a conflict here...is he trying to say that no matter how real a film attempts to be, it will never be able to capture the dynamics of real-life?

[x666x]

Caught this at the Toronto film festival. A great film with a silence inducing feel. It is hard to even comment on it except for the fact that it is excellent. You are trapped in the characters' world and as helpless...

[drown021]

I saw this for rent at blockbuster yesterday but there were no copies in.I had a feeling this movie had been discussed on this board.It looked like a movie that I would enjoy.Obviously it is on dvd now so maybe I will just purchase it.Is this movie in the same vein as say,kids or gummo?
Anyways,anyone who has wanted to see it,it is out on dvd now.

[slinker]

I quite enjoyed this, it was certainly different and not what i expected. The pacing was fantastic and moving, some may find it a tad slow but it almost sent me into some kinda visual trance in places. I definately agree with not alot of emphasis on main characters, most were treated like `extras` to us and i think this totally adds to the impact of the violence and chaos of the final scenes.

I wouldnt say it was an absolute masterpiece but its sure better than most of the crap ive been having to sit through lately! 8/10 :)

[BloodMan]

I saw this at the mall the other day, probably gonna pick it up tonight or tomorrow. It was about 20 bucks... not too shabby.

[Cujo108]

I bought the DVD on release day. A truly remarkable film, and my third favorite of 2003. In my eyes, it totally redeemed Van Sant from his Psycho 1998 low. This is a truly moving and thought provoking piece of work, and is by far one of the best films I've seen in the past several years. Simply mesmerizing.

[JasonFan]

I here the movie is very good I'm looking forward to seeing it. :)

[latenite]

Great movie, but the little tricks that Van Sant was playing on us about the killers like the nazi and the gay thing was just stupid...

[PELOQUIN]

...Jean Renoir used to say that a film where everyone understands the same things, is a bad film and Elephant sure ain't one of them.

So true, i own it on DVD, wish that Gus would have talk more about the reasons that pushed him to do a film like that.

Having this DVD in a collection is gem!!!

[shift]

Rented this movie and it sucks. What is the point of it?

2 problem kids have issues b/c others at school pick on them. Then they get stupid and get guns and start killing people. Fuck can you eve buy a gun online? lol

The whole movie is bad, nothing to be proud of. Probably give kids w/ issues ideas to do it to there schools. Just glad this movie never hit the big screen. Just pathetic to see a movie like this. Must be based of true events maybe, but still noting to brag about. Two thums down for me!! What a waste of my time and money I spent to rent this crap.

[Cujo108]

This movie did hit the big screen, and I did see it theatrically, and yes, you can get a gun online. Not a pathetic movie by any means. Its a truly excellent piece of work, and Van Sant should be very proud of it IMO. Definitely his best film to date, and one of the most thought provoking and frightening films in years. Its not for everyone, but its most definitely not crap.

[napalm68]

Hmm, I like Van Sant's work (esp Drugstore Cowboy), but hell, never thought I'd live to see the day when he was being discussed here :p

I think I'll have to grab a copy.

[latenite]

I think the film would've been much more "brilliant" if they had not shown anything about the killer's lives out of school. The killings should've been a total shock to the viewer, just like it would be to the students at the school. I used to be a big fan of Gus Van Sant after Drugstore Cowboy and My Own Private Idaho but I think he fell off after that. This movie is definitely a turn for the better for him and I hope he sticks with this new career trend.

[Ash28M]

Rented this movie and it sucks. What is the point of it?

2 problem kids have issues b/c others at school pick on them. Then they get stupid and get guns and start killing people. Fuck can you eve buy a gun online? lol

The whole movie is bad, nothing to be proud of. Probably give kids w/ issues ideas to do it to there schools. Just glad this movie never hit the big screen. Just pathetic to see a movie like this. Must be based of true events maybe, but still noting to brag about. Two thums down for me!! What a waste of my time and money I spent to rent this crap.

Looks like your pretty much on your own with your "this movie sucks" opinion.

[shift]

As I said earlier. Awful and fucking stupid ass movie. I would not even burn it as a backup. It's no gem and I do not want to ever remember this movie again. I hope this is not the kind of movie where kids see it and try a stupid thing like that in their local schools.

If I turned off my brain, then I say wow what a movie. feels real as if I was there. But I hate to see another Columbine High School incident after this movie. I am glad my kids will never see this. Sorry if you take it the wrong way, but I am giving my honest/humble opinion of this movie. Maybe if I was a kid and had issue, this might be a movie for me. Great idea to do to the kids I hate at my school. Way to go!!! Not!

[shift]

I know I am taking it as if its a real inncendent, and maybe that is why I hated it. But if never the Columbine incident ever did happen maybe I would of loved this movie. But I can't seem to justify that I did like it, that's all. Columbine really shocked me and was truely sad to see kids w/ goals & dreams get killed b/c kids whom have issues took it out on them w/ guns. But I do also blame the parents for this kinda shit also.

[slinker]

This movies definately not for everyone, my friends saw it with me at the Cinema (yep a theatrical release in the UK can you believe it!) and they nearly walked out after the first few minutes complaining of boredom. I must admit i felt quite the opposite and the film hooked me from start to finish, certainly a turn in a good direction for Mr Van. I think opinions are going to be pretty divided on movies like this due to the pace and the subject matter, i thought it worked well though.

[Cujo108]

On the subject of worrying this film will lead to another Columbine, school shootings have happened several times in the past, and of course, they're obviously what inspired this film, Columbine in particular. If a kid is going to shoot up his school, he has far worse problems than having watched a movie. Also, its not like this film is glorifying the shooters at all, because it isn't. The shootings have happened before, and I'm sure more will continue to happen, but not because of a movie. As long as there are bullies and kids full of hatred, shit like this is going to happen. Blaming movies for such a thing is just one of the lamest excuses there is if you ask me. Do you feel the same way about slasher films for fear that they will cause someone to go on a slashing spree?

Back on the subject of the film itself, I forgot to mention in my previous posts how much I loved the cinematography. Some really beautiful shots on display in the film, and I aslo loved the overall shooting style used to tell the story as a whole. I also agree wholeheartedly, Slinker. This film is never boring.

[puddytay]

Not that my opinion matters, but I also agree with Shift that this movie just plain fucking sucks. It's dead boring and nothing new or interesting. Maybe I just have different views on things.

[Mr Peabody]

I really enjoyed the film. I would give it ***/****.

[drown021]

I didnt care for this one much myself.I thought it was ssssllloooowwww.The ending was the only decent part,but I think I was expecting more.

[Katatonia]

I kinda liked the movie for some reason. It was odd and had a strangely familar look to it.

I can see how someone would say it sucks though. It's definitely not for everyone.

[Ash28M]

I saw it for the second time Today. Still think it's a great film.

Just a Question......

Any thoughts on why he would kill his buddy? I can't quite come up with a satisfactory answer for that. I guess one could say that it kept in the "no one knows for sure what thier thought process was" theme of the film. So him killing his friend would make as much sense as any other senario. Anyone else have any other ideas though?

[Cujo108]

I always wondered why he killed his friend too, and the first time I saw the film, at first I thought perhaps he'd been shot by a cop from behind or something like that. I guess the nutjob just liked killing so much, and since hardly anyone was left in the school, he just had to add his friend to his body count.

Another less likely idea is that maybe he hated his own homosexuality and all the baggage that came with it, and wanted to attempt to rid himself of everything that had to do with it, including killing his friend/lover. As I said though, I think that's the less likely of my two ideas.

[Andrew]

Cujo I'd agree with your second theory more than the first, however I do not think the two were gay. Before they kissed they both admitted to never having kissed anyone before, so it's entirely possible that they just wanted to kiss someone, i.e. be with someone intimately, before they die or their world ends (same thing really). It's obvious that they never had any sexual relations before that scene, so I really just think it's a case of kids experimenting.

HOWEVER, having said that, I think it's entirely possible that he killed his friend BECAUSE of that fact in particular. If he isn't a homosexual, then seeing or knowing that guy is still around will remind him of it. Perhaps he is now ashamed of what he did and doesn't want to think about it. Perhaps his friend just reminds him of the fact that he is a social outcast (the same reason he shoots Michelle in the library). Or maybe there is really no rhyme or reason to it, and he was just getting off on killing people. I really think it goes deeper than that though, but that's just me. Maybe someone can help me out and explain it better than Id did.

[Cujo108]

Quite true about the no sexual relations thing, but I saw it that since they were each other's only friends, they were lonely and drawn to each other, and perhaps they wanted to express such before they died. If it were experimenting, I've always thought that people who do that have homosexual urges, and aren't just doing it to test the waters, so while they may have not been totally homosexual, I think a small part of them was, thus why I referred to him hating the homosexual part of himself.

Anyways, another idea I thought of is since there was nobody else left, he killed him to go along with their suicide plan, yet decided to take one last look around before taking his own life, and hell, if he found anyone else, he alone would have the pleasure of wasting them, something he obviously enjoyed. Just a third thought of mine to throw into the equation.

[Mattster]

Ah what was this garbage? Just finished watching it. Am I the only one who thinks he pulled a Salva better than Salva pulls Salvas? Bah to pretentious filmmaking. Now I will refer to everything with Elephant added to the title. 21 Elephants Lost Translating Pulp Fiction By The Swimming Pool On Mulholland Drive.

[Wizejoker]

The movie would have been much better if they had picked actors who could actually act. You have to have some emotion when you have a gun pointed in your face. :|

[Hellbilly]

You have to have some emotion when you have a gun pointed in your face. :|Good point. I did enjoy Elephant but everybody acted like they didn't give a damn. Especially at the end when smoke came out of the building.
Blonde boy and his father just standing there so emotionless. wtf?

Watching them walking ENDLESSLY through school halls also made me very tired :eek2: Are all schools that huge in the U.S.? Seems like they needed 20 minutes to walk from one class room to the other.

[Cujo108]

I thought the characters that actually needed to showed a fine amount of emotion. And yes, Billy, high schools here are that big, at least around these parts. Nice to see you finally watched this after I recommended it ages ago. ;)

[Hellbilly]

And yes, Billy, high schools here are that big, at least around these parts.Poor Cujo. You must have thighs big as tree trunks after finishing high school with all that walking ;)