Do you think Snuff films exist?

[Ash28M]

I guess anything is possible and just like child porn anything that carries a demand usually can find a supplier for that demand but Is the demand great enough?

The Fact is that No Tape has ever been found that depicts murder for profit or for someone's own personal enjoyment for that matter. Contrary to popular belief there is no evidence that a serial killer has ever filmed any of their murders.

So what do you think? are there tapes floating around the underground or in some perverted Fat Cats safe created in some third world country "were life is cheap":)

Or is it all just a Charlie Sheen/Home Video boom inspired camp fire tale?

[bigdaddyhorse]

Somewhere there's something.
I mean since video recorders came out, everything and anything has been filmed by now so I'm sure somewhere snuff films exist. They're probably not as numerous as many films and whatnot would lead you to believe, but I'm sure some are out there locked in some rich sickos vaults.

[geeare]

I have seen video files on the net of people killing other people. it is not pretty and it is very much real.

[RyanPC]

I have seen video files on the net of people killing other people. it is not pretty and it is very much real.

Yeah, but those aren't snuff films because they weren't created to generate a profit.

[Reverenddave]

I agree there's a big difference between snuff (a murder committed specifically for the purpose of selling the video footage) and a Faces Of Death type video (a person's death caught on tape).

A part of me thinks that there must be some legit snuff films out there. Some people are into sick shit. And there will always be someone willing to commit horrific crimes for a buck.

But another part of me thinks, if there's stuff like this out there, why hasn't it come out? With the internet, this kind of stuff spreads like a virus. It's easy to find videos of terrorists cutting of someone's head with a knife and rap singers peeing on a 13-year-old. So why aren't there any snuff films flying around the interweb?

[horrorlover]

I hope they don't exist, but you never know, they seem to be urban legends though.

[Wayne Manor]

Yes, but they're kind of boring. Who wants to see someone snorting tobacco for two hours?

[Luna]

Yeah, but those aren't snuff films because they weren't created to generate a profit.I almost hesitate to bring this up here but Muslim beheading/killing soldier movies kind of border on this in my mind, as defined in this thread and not by me personally, because while they were not created primarily to sell and make money, they DO sell them at outdoor stands in some countries, along with martyr t-shirts, portraits and anything else a budding terrorist could want for inspiration. They apparently sell like hotcakes and the money, as little as it may be, may or may not go directly back to the people who did the crime (in support of their cause), who are often the same people who put the video together and released it in the first place. I'm sure you can find some clips of these videos glorifying violence on YouTube and other sites like Memri (http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=75).

Beheading videos sold in Iraq (http://media.www.dailytexanonline.com/media/storage/paper410/news/2004/09/29/WorldNation/Beheading.Videos.Sold.In.Iraq-734969.shtml)
Jihad Materials Thrive in Yemeni Markets (http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/2743.cfm)
Beheading video tops charts in Baghdad (http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20040906-123715-6916r.htm)
Beheading videos fascinate public (http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20041018-103745-2585r.htm)

Eh. I can find more links but you see what I'm getting at here.

[rxfiend]

Here's my take on why you won't see these on the net. If some sicko is going to buy a snuff film, it's not going to be for $50 or whatever. I imagine it's going to be in the thousands, if not millions for it. Who would want to spread around something for free that cost them a lot of money in return for it?

[satans-sadists]

Don't know if they exist as depicted in the Nicolas Cage movie 8mm, but yes I do believe they exist in some form.

[Reverenddave]

Who would want to spread around something for free that cost them a lot of money in return for it?

It would spread the same way that kiddie stuff spreads. You might pay a lot of money for your first movie. But once you have a movie, you can trade it to others for their movies. Plus, people enjoy sharing with others that have the same interests. If this stuff exists, it would be somewhere on the internet.

[Reverenddave]

I almost hesitate to bring this up here but Muslim beheading/killing soldier movies kind of border on this in my mind, as defined in this thread and not by me personally, because while they were not created primarily to sell and make money, they DO sell them at outdoor stands in some countries, along with martyr t-shirts, portraits and anything else a budding terrorist could want for inspiration.

I'd thought of these too. But I guess I've always considered snuff films to have some kind of sexual aspect. I don't mean that the films themselves involve sex. But that the films are created to stimulate a sexual release. Like a form of pornography. And I don't think that applies to the terrorist videos.

[Rockmjd]

I'd thought of these too. But I guess I've always considered snuff films to have some kind of sexual aspect. I don't mean that the films themselves involve sex. But that the films are created to stimulate a sexual release. Like a form of pornography. And I don't think that applies to the terrorist videos.
Yes, that's the traditional definition of snuff films.

[baggio]

It is odd that you can find any type of video imaginable on the internet, whether it be news carnage, natural disasters, jackass type videos, bum fights, child porn, beheading videos, vandalization, simulated crimes, etc... And most recently a suicide on paltalk.

But no true snuff, like mentioned earlier. For the sole purpose to film a real death.

So maybe the ramifications are to great. Too many things involved to pull one off.

[Anthropophagus]

God I hope not, but I would not be shocked that stuff like this transpires in poor countries where some are desperate to do anything to enrich their families financially. I loathe to think of the type of sick mind who could actually enjoy this. I saw unedited film footage of, if I remember correctly, the Cambodian genocide-it was grainy as hell, B&W and depicted a young man being held on the ground while a soldier stepped on his head and hacked at his neck with a machete. The camera never cut away and the soldier had to shake the machete to and fro to finally sever the head from the body. Easily one of the most awful things I have seen and even worst when you consider that according to some estimates up to three million people were killed in the Cambodian genocide(1975-1979) under the Khmer Rouge.
Still, I would not consider what I saw snuff but I don't consider death for entertainment to be entertainment at all by any means.

[Crystal Plumage]

I don't know how it is in the US but here in Holland there are several cases of Rape and Molesting by 16 to 18 year olds with by standers filming it on their mobile phones AND putting it up the internet.
One step away from Snuff and probably just because we don't know it yet.

[Crystal Plumage]

Found at least one real Snuff movie at Limewire (though I'm not the one to really check it out :nervous: )
Damn,I'm dropping out of this thread.Makes me sick...

[Anthropophagus]

I don't know how it is in the US but here in Holland there are several cases of Rape and Molesting by 16 to 18 year olds with by standers filming it on their mobile phones AND putting it up the internet.
One step away from Snuff and probably just because we don't know it yet.

I think I need to take a shower now. Seriously, what the hell is happening to society. Not just North American, but everywhere. :fucked:

[DEADCHRIST]

I can't understand how people could think they don't exist. Of course they do.

[gunner]

Contrary to popular belief there is no evidence that a serial killer has ever filmed any of their murders

This isn't true. There has certainly been cases where a killer has videotaped a murder from beginning to end. The latest one I heard of was about 5 years ago, Maury Troy Travis in St. Louis. He had a regular collection sitting on shelves in his personal torture room basement. Sick shit.
But as for real snuff films, as-in made to black market to elite sickos. Charles Manson's family have been rumored to have done it, as well as the Son of Sam killer, Henry Lee Lucas & Otis Toole. The thought chills me...I remember this wacko company back in the 80's known as W.A.V.E., they used to make simulated snuff. Their ads (which showed up in every issue of John Russo's Scream Queens magazine) used to make me ill. Who in the hells buying this stuff?

[horrorlover]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,375883,00.html

Apparently they are only too real :(

[satans-sadists]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,375883,00.html

Apparently they are only too real :(

Horrifying story, too disgusting for words!!!

[satans-sadists]

When I was in high school, I had the extreme displeasure of seeing one of the Faces of Death documentaries at a co-worker's house. I never understood why someone would want to watch such offensive trash. This is nothing when compared to that utterly shocking British article.

[KR~!]

humans can be such sick fucks.

Horror is fantasy, give me cheese and rubber suits any day.

If I wanted to see real deaths, I would just watch the news.

[DEADCHRIST]

I remember this wacko company back in the 80's known as W.A.V.E., they used to make simulated snuff. Their ads (which showed up in every issue of John Russo's Scream Queens magazine) used to make me ill.

Interesting, I've never heard of this, is there any chance you could scan some of these ads and post them?

[mcchrist]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,375883,00.html

Apparently they are only too real :(

I wish I didn't read that.

[JW77]

Interesting question.

And, just to get the terms straight, I'll say that in order for something to qualify as a "snuff film" it has to be an actual murder recorded expressly for the purpose of distribution. So someone just filming a murder they're committing doesn't qualify unless they have buyers lined up and the sole purpose of the murder is to make the film. So by that definition, Islamic fundamentalists selling beheading videos would have a political motive. A snuff film has to be a "murder porn" (which may or may not involve a sex act) to be a true snuff film.

For the time being, I'll say "no." (Did anything ever come out of that Russian thing in the link? A prosecution, at least? The article originated in the UK, and the news media there tends to be rather sensationalistic. But if snuff films were coming out of Russia it wouldn't surprise me.)

If anyone -- in the US at least -- has ever been prosecuted for making snuff films, then it would be part of the public record. We have public trials here.

I also believe that if the authorities have ever uncovered an actual snuff film or a distribution scheme, then owning a snuff film would be a crime. Much like possessing child pornography is a crime. (Owning regular porn is not a crime; porn involving children is, however, because of the belief that simply owning child porn creates demand and that more children will be abused to make more child pornography. I should think the same thing would apply to snuff films.) "Snuff films" -- if they do actually exist -- are not, to my knowledge, illegal to own. Kind of circuitous logic, but if they were illegal to own, wouldn't that more less be admitting that they do, in fact, exist?

Creating a snuff film would be leaving the ultimate piece of evidence in a murder case: an actual recording of the crime. Not the kind of thing anyone would want to be released to the public.

As such, I think the only way that snuff films could exist would be with a small, tightly controlled distribution network consisting of only a handful of people, probably a few dozen tops.

[maskull]

Gods of Death by Yaron Svoray (http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Death-Yaron-Svoray/dp/0684814455/ref=sr_1_5/102-2733166-8379302?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179362971&sr=1-5)
Amazon.com
Legal scholar and anti-pornography activist Catherine MacKinnon approached journalist Yaron Svoray about "snuff films," because he was the only person who'd said in print that he'd seen such a film (while undercover investigating neo-Nazis for his book In Hitler's Shadow), in which a girl was raped and murdered. "It is my misfortune," Svoray says, "to have been born with a need to look under the carpet." After a bit of soul-searching, he undertook the investigation described in this book--a series of adventures with many dead ends and mishaps, some of which are quite funny. (This reviewer was impressed by his tenacity.) The writing, while sincere, is overdramatized and synoptic, leaving the reader to decide whether to believe Svoray's hair-raising tales. This book is important for what it says about how (in Svoray's words) "blood sells," and it will no doubt spark much discussion among those who doubt the existence of snuff films.

[Anthropophagus]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,375883,00.html

Apparently they are only too real :(

That is some sick, twisted stuff. I hope those involved got the harshest punishment possible. Where do people like this come from and how would you cultivate an interest for such sick filth.
Reading about it made my stomach queasy.

[DeathDealer]

Interesting Thread...

[Ash28M]

This isn't true. There has certainly been cases where a killer has videotaped a murder from beginning to end. The latest one I heard of was about 5 years ago, Maury Troy Travis in St. Louis. He had a regular collection sitting on shelves in his personal torture room basement. Sick shit.
stuff?

Can you give me a link I would like to read up on that. I know of a few i.e Paul Bernardo and Charles Ing that filmed there victims but not being murdered. I have never read about an actual murder on tape.

[gunner]

Ash, here's a quick find http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=4412382&BRD=1719&PAG=461&dept_id=25271&rfi=8
But the best piece I've seen on this guy would be the Forensic Files episode, keep an eye out.
If your curious about death on camera get this book, I got rid of mine. Rough stuff...
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SVKAGNM0L._SS500_.jpg

[mcchrist]

Gods of Death by Yaron Svoray (http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Death-Yaron-Svoray/dp/0684814455/ref=sr_1_5/102-2733166-8379302?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179362971&sr=1-5)

That's a good read maskull, but it's a tall tale. I've read that and it's one of the biggest pieces of BULLSHIT I've ever read. It's scary stuff and he presents some good potential theories, but almost every page of the book is reeking of garbage.

[maskull]

That's a good read maskull, but it's a tall tale. I've read that and it's one of the biggest pieces of BULLSHIT I've ever read. It's scary stuff and he presents some good potential theories, but almost every page of the book is reeking of garbage.

Yeah. I'm not saying it's real or accurate, I'm just putting it out there for people to check out and make up their own decisions on it. Personally I enjoyed it but he does have a tendency to over-sensationalize everything and never really comes forth with any proof. I kind of read it like it was fiction honestly.

Did you read his book "In Hitler's Shadow"? More of the same but this time dealing with neo-Nazi's.

[mcchrist]

I kind of read it like it was fiction honestly.

Yeah, me too. It was a fun read, but I wouldn't glean anything from it. I haven't read the other one, but it sounds interesting.

And by the way, Gunner, Killing for Culture is an amazing book. I've read it twice.

[bigdaddyhorse]

humans can be such sick fucks.

Horror is fantasy, give me cheese and rubber suits any day.

If I wanted to see real deaths, I would just watch the news.

What I should've added to my posts in the first place.

I haven't clicked on any links as a, I don't want to, and b, I'm on my GF's moms computer. I will add that not many links for any real snuff videos would or wouldn't show up for the same reason as kiddie porn: you're IP address will be traced and you will go to jail, period.
Of course this doesn't stop Traci Lords videos from showing up on Limewire and such, but for real, it's completly different. It's not like Traci looks 12, she looks 20, and is only illegal cuz she wasn't. It's not sought out cuz she was underage, it's sought out cuz she was hot and got into her work.
Snuff shouldn't be sought out and anyone who has real videos must have something wrong with them as there's no other reason to have it than being a sick fuck.
An argument could be made for morbid curiosity, but not a good one. Some things are out of bounds no matter what.

[Ash28M]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,375883,00.html

Apparently they are only too real :(

Hey that sounds like snuff to me. The article is from Sunday October 1, 2000. Do you know what became of that?

[dwatts]

--And, just to get the terms straight, I'll say that in order for something to qualify as a "snuff film" it has to be an actual murder recorded expressly for the purpose of distribution.--

Well, to my mind the Daniel Pearlman killing fits this bill. It was done for political reasons I suppose, but it was filmed for no other reason than to kill someone so it could be shown around the world. Many people downloaded it, so I guess there's a market....

[RyanPC]

--And, just to get the terms straight, I'll say that in order for something to qualify as a "snuff film" it has to be an actual murder recorded expressly for the purpose of distribution.--

Well, to my mind the Daniel Pearlman killing fits this bill. It was done for political reasons I suppose, but it was filmed for no other reason than to kill someone so it could be shown around the world. Many people downloaded it, so I guess there's a market....

But did they pay to download it? Money is the key regarding the so-called "snuff" films. There are plenty of death videos available to download for free, so they were not created to generate profit for the filmmakers. Snuff films are also supposed to be a form of pornography for the buyer. They get off on it. Taking those two things into account is very important when deciding whether or not a video is real snuff.

The Observer article people are linking to is definitely an example of snuff, but as the article is from 2000 and no one has followed up on it, I question its validity.

[dwatts]

--But did they pay to download it? Money is the key regarding the so-called "snuff" films. --

Well, I guess we're splitting hairs. The internet is never actually free, although when downloading things we neever consider that and call them "free". I guess the terrorists use such things to get money, training, and weapons. But yeah, I can see it's a tough call. Personally, I think it's snuff, and I think an amazing amount of people were into it sufficiently to download it.

[RyanPC]

--But did they pay to download it? Money is the key regarding the so-called "snuff" films. --

Well, I guess we're splitting hairs. The internet is never actually free, although when downloading things we neever consider that and call them "free". I guess the terrorists use such things to get money, training, and weapons. But yeah, I can see it's a tough call. Personally, I think it's snuff, and I think an amazing amount of people were into it sufficiently to download it.

But the Daniel Pearl video was not, to my knowledge, created for people to enjoy--it was created as a list of demands to the United States, was it not?

[Luna]

People sympathetic to the cause of the murderers sure did enjoy it and that was definitely part of the reason for creating it... to strengthen their image among those who would sympathize and gain more supporters for the cause. There are some sick people out there and money oftentimes can't buy support so propaganda is a much more valuable tool.

[dwatts]

I hide behind everyones favorite - the dictionary. :D

a pornographic film that shows an actual murder of one of the performers, as at the end of a sadistic act.

Doesn't include the money part, so I tender my offer and insist you accept it. Or don't. :D

I'm pretty damn sure those in favor of the "cause" got plenty of pleasure knowing and watching this poor fellow killed - if pleasure is a factor, then for me, without a doubt, the video qualifies. Of course, we could get into definitions of "pleasure", because some people sure had a compulsion to watch it. I'm sure that wasn't for a good laugh or anything, but some level of "entertainment" surely played a factor? Sometimes my entertainment time is spent watching something shocking (although this wasn't a case for me).

[dirkwu]

www.forcedexistence.com

you can find your answer there.

Its a sick website for sick people, i don't recommend it at all.

[DeathDealer]

I dare not go to that website.

[dwatts]

Don't worry:

"This domain is parked with DreamHost!

This domain is currently parked with DreamHost.
Site coming soon!"

[geeare]

Here's my take on why you won't see these on the net. If some sicko is going to buy a snuff film, it's not going to be for $50 or whatever. I imagine it's going to be in the thousands, if not millions for it. Who would want to spread around something for free that cost them a lot of money in return for it?

You're right who would want to do this, certainly NOT hollywood but it appears to be happening to them as well.

[Criswell]

Firstly lets get things in check. A film like that from Henry, Portrait...? of course they would exist. If a fucker is gonna keep a head as a souvenier then he would probably film it too and tugg off later.

But a film and complete industry like in Hardcore, 8MM or Emmanuelle in USA? No. Not a chance.

Maybe not cause its not on some peoples minds, but because it just would not be plausible to keep quiet. The fact you all mention kiddy porn, beatiality etc etc is that the word gets out. Its a bit like the massive conspiracy theories about 9/11 or the landing on the moon. Its "plausible" but in reality impossible to keep a lid on.

If you were involved in snuff, you sure as hell are gonna be involved in arm, drugs etc etc..... you get done for one of those, youre gonna roll over to the Cops.

As for The Observer quote. "British authorities yesterday confirmed that scores of Kuznetsov's videos, produced in his small flat in Moscow's rundown Vykhino district, have been found in the UK. They are concerned that 'snuff' movies in which children are killed may have also been imported." Its all speculative. They say may, may may all through the article and even have a name for them but nobody was charged with possession of one, nor did they find one. Sounds like the 70's SNUFF incident all over again.

btw. I have known some REAL SICK FUCKS IN MY TIME..........i am not a blind choir-boy.