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baggio
03-12-2008, 04:43 PM
I was Best buy the other night. And they had POTC Dead Man's Chest playing on a Sony 1080p LCD using Blu-Ray. And from what I heard this Blu-Ray is one of the best out there.

Now here's the question: Is it too good?

And what I mean by that is I only seen a few Blu-Ray set ups before in stores, with various movies playing. But I never really stayed to watch more than a minute.

This time I was watching POTC for at least 25 minutes. And was simply amazed by the detail & clearity. But a part of me, was thinking , was it too clear. I seen the POTC in the theaters & it never looked like this. IMO it lost its film look , if you know what I mean. It was so clear, that it was (this is hard to explain) like it was a reality show or news program. It felt like I could touch the actors. It felt like they were on stage sets. Take the part when the guys were in those ball jail things climbing up the moutain scene. It didn't look natural. It looked like the men were on a fake moutain & the backgrounds were fake. It looked very staged. Versus the theater , when everything on screen had a fluent look to it. There was too much seperation with the actors & the backgrounds in the Blu-ray version.

Its very hard too explain, I understand. But does anybody know what I'm talking about. I know I'm not used to Blu-Ray, but it was seemed distracting to watch the film that way. The movie didn't seem like a movie anymore, it was felt like a expirement. Don't get me wrong, it was crazy detailed and clear. It was quite amazing. But in IMO it took all the charm out of film.

Are there other movies like this? Like I said before I heard this was a benchmark DVD. Does anybody feel this was towards Blu-Ray? Is HD better for watching sports , concerts, etc... places where you want to be there live, & feel like your standing next to the people. I'm all for movies to be shown in the clearest way possible. Like the difference from having a bad vhs copy vs. a clean dvd version of a film with no grain. But HD is a whole other thing imo if they all look like this. Well the newer movies anyway.

Workshed
03-12-2008, 04:58 PM
I wonder if maybe it wasn't the Blu-Ray taking away from the film look, but instead, perhaps the television was utilizing that fancy 120Hz refresh rate they keep trumpeting--but just makes films look like television shows (from what I've seen). Not a fan.

dwatts
03-12-2008, 05:00 PM
I think it's easy to forget that in the UK we've had PAL forever, and PAL is a lot better than the old NTSC. Hi-def isn't such a jump for us.

Personally I think it looks great, but there will always be those nostalgic for the old look of things. Sports look terrific in hi-def, but to be honest I've not seen anything that doesn't.

The thing is with this type of thing.... you only notice the stark difference for a few weeks - after that you just get used to it.

geeare
03-12-2008, 05:05 PM
but at the same time blu-ray is much better than hi-def that you can get from the cable companies or satelite. I love the odd look of the blu movies. alot of times i find myself grinning while watching movies because i love the piucture so much. my wife is on the fence but i think she is getting use to it and liking it more with every movie we watch. IMO it's simply awesome...and yes, I have a sony 52" XBR so i am using the 120hz as well.

baggio
03-12-2008, 05:26 PM
I wonder if maybe it wasn't the Blu-Ray taking away from the film look, but instead, perhaps the television was utilizing that fancy 120Hz refresh rate they keep trumpeting--but just makes films look like television shows (from what I've seen). Not a fan.

Thats a great description of the movie I just saw. It looks like a television show.

Personally I think it looks great, but there will always be those nostalgic for the old look of things. Sports look terrific in hi-def, but to be honest I've not seen anything that doesn't.

The thing is with this type of thing.... you only notice the stark difference for a few weeks - after that you just get used to it.

Good point, I guess you would get used to it from watching it regularly. Going back to the sports part. Didn't HD in the beginning mainly marketed with sports. It seemed like that was the main thing to sell people on HD. That & live performances, talk shows, etc... I remember the Winter Olympics being a big deal in HD

baggio
03-12-2008, 05:41 PM
but at the same time blu-ray is much better than hi-def that you can get from the cable companies or satelite. I love the odd look of the blu movies. alot of times i find myself grinning while watching movies because i love the piucture so much. my wife is on the fence but i think she is getting use to it and liking it more with every movie we watch. IMO it's simply awesome...and yes, I have a sony 52" XBR so i am using the 120hz as well.

When you say "odd look" , makes me believe you know what I talking about with the movies. Like you said, its quite impressive, but yet very different.

Some questions. Is the 120hz a big difference in your opinion than the 60 frame rate? I was holding out on not buying the 1080 without the 120hz. I was actually leaning towards the 720p, because of the problems of blur in the 60mhz rate 1080. 720p dosen't have that problem. Did you ever own a 720p or 1080 60mhz?

And Have you seen the POTC Blu-Ray? Is it a benchmark , like people have been saying vs other Blu-ray movies? I can't believe older movies have that much clarity, that you feel your right there with the actors on screen like POTC

X-human
03-12-2008, 06:31 PM
I see what you're saying baggio, unfortunately tastes have change so that people want everything to look like a TV show. I read a lot of posts over on AVS of people complaining about natural levels of grain and how things don't look like sports broadcasts. The art of film is the look and feel of film. Some flat out can't appreciate that, and unfortunately their tastes are the ones dictating the new technology.

The 120hz does affect the look and feel of a movie. Film is traditionally 24 frames a second. TV is 30 frames a second. To bump it up to 60 frames is to loose the rhythm of film. Just like changing tempo for music.

I think it is potentially damaging too in the sense that we loose that sense of film. I remember once reading Charlie Chapplin discussing frame rates and how comedy plays out better at 18 frames a second (or something like that). It occurred to me what "It" is. "It" of course is that undescribable quality that makes someone or something look good in a movie. I think of it as acting in 24 frames a second. The way someone moves or does things just looks good at 24fps. But it's all about the presentation. They had to use slow motion just to capture Bruce Lee's movements for example, then change it back to 24fps.

Pretty soon the idea of watching a movie shot on film will be the same as watching a black and white or heaven forbid silent movie. "How can you watch that? It's not shot on video!"

MorallySound
03-12-2008, 07:46 PM
I see what you're saying baggio, unfortunately tastes have change so that people want everything to look like a TV show. I read a lot of posts over on AVS of people complaining about natural levels of grain and how things don't look like sports broadcasts. The art of film is the look and feel of film. Some flat out can't appreciate that, and unfortunately their tastes are the ones dictating the new technology.

The 120hz does affect the look and feel of a movie. Film is traditionally 24 frames a second. TV is 30 frames a second. To bump it up to 60 frames is to loose the rhythm of film. Just like changing tempo for music.

I think it is potentially damaging too in the sense that we loose that sense of film. I remember once reading Charlie Chapplin discussing frame rates and how comedy plays out better at 18 frames a second (or something like that). It occurred to me what "It" is. "It" of course is that undescribable quality that makes someone or something look good in a movie. I think of it as acting in 24 frames a second. The way someone moves or does things just looks good at 24fps. But it's all about the presentation. They had to use slow motion just to capture Bruce Lee's movements for example, then change it back to 24fps.

Pretty soon the idea of watching a movie shot on film will be the same as watching a black and white or heaven forbid silent movie. "How can you watch that? It's not shot on video!"

Very scary indeed! I've always been a big supporter of film, and the look and feel of film. And if Blu-ray is destroying that completely, count me out. I don't need to see a picture so clear I can see every pore on a person's face, or pick out minute details. I can see/hear/feel those things in reality, I don't need it too take me away from the aesthetic of a how a movie is meant to be seen.

Workshed
03-12-2008, 09:01 PM
Very scary indeed! I've always been a big supporter of film, and the look and feel of film. And if Blu-ray is destroying that completely, count me out. I don't need to see a picture so clear I can see every pore on a person's face, or pick out minute details. I can see/hear/feel those things in reality, I don't need it too take me away from the aesthetic of a how a movie is meant to be seen.

Not Blu-Ray, but the 120Hz, which, as I understand it, is a television thing.

baggio
03-12-2008, 10:05 PM
Not Blu-Ray, but the 120Hz, which, as I understand it, is a television thing.

You mention the 120hz again. I'm not sure but I don't think that was the reason. Thats just the framrate speed for LCD's. Plasma's don't have that problem of 60hz vs 120hz. Its not just the speed for the clearity results. I'm sure this super clear look of the Pirates movie would show on a 720p tv. (well not exactly, but you get the idea) Its the HD presentation of the movie on a HD screen thats the factor here. Its like a whole other experience of watching a movie. Then again I could be wrong.

Ash28M
03-12-2008, 10:08 PM
How can a blu-ray of a film look better then film when it's sources from film?

The only reason it looks better then film is because the screen is so small and because usually theaters don't set up film properly. If you want to see the way film is suppose to look go to one of the major film festivals. It will look better then you have ever seen it.

baggio
03-12-2008, 10:14 PM
Very scary indeed! I've always been a big supporter of film, and the look and feel of film. And if Blu-ray is destroying that completely, count me out. I don't need to see a picture so clear I can see every pore on a person's face, or pick out minute details. I can see/hear/feel those things in reality, I don't need it too take me away from the aesthetic of a how a movie is meant to be seen.

Its not just being clear enough to see every detail. It more than that, the movie (POTC) feels like they filmed it right outside your window. Like you can touch the detail on the screen. It's quite amazing and yet creepy at the same time. Sports, concerts, I can handle. I get that. But in movies I look at them as a dream sort of way. This new detail makes it just not film like. All too real.

P.S. - I just thought of the perfect description of the Pirates Dead Man Chest in Blu-Ray. Its as if I was watching a live play. As if you are waiting to hear the director say cut or end scene.

baggio
03-12-2008, 10:21 PM
How can a blu-ray of a film look better then film when it's sources from film?

The only reason it looks better then film is because the screen is so small and because usually theaters don't set up film properly. If you want to see the way film is suppose to look go to one of the major film festivals. It will look better then you have ever seen it.

never been to a film festival. Are you saying the large screen looks just as I saw it in that display at best buy. If so wow. All theaters should do this.

Never saw anything that close in any theater I have ever been to in my life.

Also I'm not saying it looks "better" ,it looks different than anything I've seen before. read my earlier posts on my descriptions. Its just not film like. I'm not saying its 3-D, but its like that different. You know what I mean. It has a staged look, if that makes any sense. Not that this makes any difference, is just opinions anyway, but there was a few people watching the film along side of me at the time. And they were saying the same thing. They were drawn to the uniqueness. look up some reviews of that disc. quite a lot of praise for that particular Blu-Ray DVD.

Bottom line is that Blu-Ray looks amazing & unique. No question. But the question is does it take away from the normal film like experience? Is it too good for its own good? Or was that particular movie I saw a rarity. And most Blu-Rays don't look like that.

Ash28M
03-12-2008, 10:37 PM
never been to a film festival. Are you saying the large screen looks just as I saw it in that display at best buy. If so wow. All theaters should do this.

Never saw anything that close in any theater I have ever been to in my life.
.


The way you saw it was on a tiny screen compared to a 50 foot theatre screen. A theatre will never look as sharp as what you are describing but I have seen it look pretty dam sharp. I have also heard reviews of people watching DVD sports in theatres and saying it looks like crap. Even when they were demonstrating that 150inch plasma recently they upconverter 1080p to 4000K so it would look great on that screen that's not even that big compared to a theatre screen. I know it looks great I have a 61 inch DLP and a blu-ray player and It looks amazing but you have to keep it in perspective.

To answer your question no matter how good a Movie has looked on Blu-Ray I've never thought it took away from the experience only added to it IMO. I have never seen a blu ray on the 120 refresh rate though.

P.S I just read an HD review of Dead mans chest and it does sound great.

zombi3
03-12-2008, 11:40 PM
You mention the 120hz again. I'm not sure but I don't think that was the reason. Thats just the framrate speed for LCD's. Plasma's don't have that problem of 60hz vs 120hz. Its not just the speed for the clearity results. I'm sure this super clear look of the Pirates movie would show on a 720p tv. (well not exactly, but you get the idea) Its the HD presentation of the movie on a HD screen thats the factor here. Its like a whole other experience of watching a movie. Then again I could be wrong.

I'm pretty sure this "video" look has everything to do with the 120hz TVs. I noticed the very same thing at my local Best Buy. They must be using Pirates to showcase the 120hz sets. If you disable this feature on the TV, I bet the movie will look like film rather than video.

Workshed
03-12-2008, 11:51 PM
I'm pretty sure this "video" look has everything to do with the 120hz TVs. I noticed the very same thing at my local Best Buy. They must be using Pirates to showcase the 120hz sets. If you disable this feature on the TV, I bet the movie will look like film rather than video.

Yeah, this is a good point. The feature can be disabled. What does it then default to, though, I wonder? 60Hz?

X-human
03-13-2008, 12:32 AM
Very scary indeed! I've always been a big supporter of film, and the look and feel of film. And if Blu-ray is destroying that completely, count me out. I don't need to see a picture so clear I can see every pore on a person's face, or pick out minute details. I can see/hear/feel those things in reality, I don't need it too take me away from the aesthetic of a how a movie is meant to be seen.

It's not so much the clarity, film is very clear. As has been stated over and over again 35mm and certainly 70mm are higher quality than 1080p HD. 16mm is about 1080p. What I'm really talking about is how they shot it not what they shot it on.

There's a difference between letting film be film and making film look like video. Video has a larger depth of field for example. I was watching a movie my friend shot at 480p on one of those 50 foot screens in an art house theater and the foreground and background were both in perfect focus and very clear. This made a very flat TV look.

In Pirates for example when they're out at sea you can see a crystal clear horizon as well as the character in the foreground being in focus. They probably used long lenses far away to increase the depth of field. This makes a very detailed picture. This also makes a very flat TV look.

This is all accomplished by exposure, lenses and distance. If they used a shorter lens and got closer then the background wouldn't look as clear. It would look more like other films which traditionally have less depth of field than video.

dwatts
03-13-2008, 08:33 AM
I think we're fooled by what we imagine film looks like. Often times we're seeing a worn print on its travels. There aren't many of us that have seen a first generation copy fresh off the negative to truly compare what we find on DVD/hi-def.

What's more, it's all slowly going digital - films are being shot this way, and projected this way in some places. Which'll give similar results.

geeare
03-13-2008, 12:11 PM
When you say "odd look" , makes me believe you know what I talking about with the movies. Like you said, its quite impressive, but yet very different.

Some questions. Is the 120hz a big difference in your opinion than the 60 frame rate? I was holding out on not buying the 1080 without the 120hz. I was actually leaning towards the 720p, because of the problems of blur in the 60mhz rate 1080. 720p dosen't have that problem. Did you ever own a 720p or 1080 60mhz?

And Have you seen the POTC Blu-Ray? Is it a benchmark , like people have been saying vs other Blu-ray movies? I can't believe older movies have that much clarity, that you feel your right there with the actors on screen like POTC


Ya I know exactly what you are talking about. and yes it appears the 120hz makes it look this way. I have a problem using the 120hz watching hi-def tv, it kinda makes me sick, i can't really explain why. it's fine with hi-def sports from cable and blu-ray movies but when I watch some tv shows (especialy ER, might be the camera work) it kinda makes me ill, like motion sickness.

As for "blur", or as i call it "ghosting", i was getting ALOT of that when I first bought my TV because Sony's out of the box settings suck! they have it set to vivid which really makes the ghosting noticeable, especially with the brown colours. I have since tweaked my settings to make them my own and I mostly notice the ghosting when I am playing COD4 with my PS3. There is still a little while watching movies but not enough to bother me any more, and perhaps I am just getting use to it I don't know.

Moving on to POTC, yes, I would say it is a staple for being one of the best transfers out there unless you are talking about the computer animated toons out there like Cars and Rattatoue (sp). As for older movies, I've watched several now, The Omega Man, Young Guns, The Road Warrior, and a couple others and they look amazing. Much better than the previous releases on SD-DVD. You will be amazed. I hear that Close Encounters and 2001 look spectacular but I have not seen then yet.

baggio
03-13-2008, 03:32 PM
Ya I know exactly what you are talking about. and yes it appears the 120hz makes it look this way. I have a problem using the 120hz watching hi-def tv, it kinda makes me sick, i can't really explain why. it's fine with hi-def sports from cable and blu-ray movies but when I watch some tv shows (especialy ER, might be the camera work) it kinda makes me ill, like motion sickness.

As for "blur", or as i call it "ghosting", i was getting ALOT of that when I first bought my TV because Sony's out of the box settings suck! they have it set to vivid which really makes the ghosting noticeable, especially with the brown colours. I have since tweaked my settings to make them my own and I mostly notice the ghosting when I am playing COD4 with my PS3. There is still a little while watching movies but not enough to bother me any more, and perhaps I am just getting use to it I don't know.

Moving on to POTC, yes, I would say it is a staple for being one of the best transfers out there unless you are talking about the computer animated toons out there like Cars and Rattatoue (sp). As for older movies, I've watched several now, The Omega Man, Young Guns, The Road Warrior, and a couple others and they look amazing. Much better than the previous releases on SD-DVD. You will be amazed. I hear that Close Encounters and 2001 look spectacular but I have not seen then yet.

Thanks for the info on this subject. And to the other people here that posted interesting info on this topic.


Hey guys check this video out on comparing 720p vs 1080i . This was before the 1080p 120 hz tvs. So I guess this is what the new 1080p tvs were fixing with the faster frame rate. Its a very clear analysis of the to versions.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-JXfyvlPh0


and another video of a test between 720p vs 1080p Problem is I don't understand what they are saying. :lol: Also funny, they are watching the Pirates Dead Mans Chest dvd. Too bad I can't understand it. Maybe someone can translate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hayxSD8Ww7k