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Fistfuck
10-29-2009, 10:00 PM
So I have a SD DVD player connected to my LG 32" via HDMI, and I've noticed something with a large number of movies that I've viewed through the DVD player. There are numerous moments where the picture is out of sync with itself. The audio is absolutely fine, and still synced to the visual, but I'll give you an example from Proyas' Knowing. There's a scene where Nick Cage is in front of a blackboard. The writing on the blackboard is moving independent of the rest of the frame. It's very odd, almost as if the player or the TV knows what is a separate object in the frame.

Anybody have any ideas?

Oh, yeah. GO PHILLIES!

Katatonia
10-30-2009, 02:50 AM
Sounds like ghosting/slow refresh rate.

Fistfuck
10-30-2009, 03:25 AM
Sounds like ghosting/slow refresh rate.

That's what I'm imagining. Wondering whether it's in the TV, the HDMI cable, or the DVD player.

Paff
10-31-2009, 02:08 AM
Troubleshooting is such a lost art...

Go get yourself some good component cables. Watch the same scene in Standard Definition (which essentially means your TV will be doing the HD upscale). See if you have the same problem.

I guess I should look into the technology here, but I've never really seen the point of upscaling DVD players. It ain't HD, nothing can make it HD. I'd rather watch the minimal amount of processing done to the signal.

X-human
10-31-2009, 02:59 AM
Ghosting is a common problem with LCDs, especially older ones.

Is it all blocky segments or does it look like trails? Literally like a ghost? "Ghosting" is pretty self explanatory; looking identically to what you would think. Is it's more like digital break up, where chunks of video remain behind? I'd almost wonder if it was DNR gone mad.

Ghosting on an LCD would be on everything to some degree though. And Paff, I would remind you that CRTs originally had issues with ghosting as well. Science cured that, as they've already made great progress on LCDs.

Fistfuck
10-31-2009, 04:40 AM
Ghosting is a common problem with LCDs, especially older ones.

Is it all blocky segments or does it look like trails? Literally like a ghost? "Ghosting" is pretty self explanatory; looking identically to what you would think. Is it's more like digital break up, where chunks of video remain behind? I'd almost wonder if it was DNR gone mad.

Ghosting on an LCD would be on everything to some degree though. And Paff, I would remind you that CRTs originally had issues with ghosting as well. Science cured that, as they've already made great progress on LCDs.

Paff, the reason I'm asking here is because I'd rather someone say "oh, yeah, I've had the same problem," before I go out and buy this, that, and the other thing to fix it. It might be as simple as adjusting a setting, or I could find out I need to drop more Fort McMoney for a better HDMI cable.

X-Human, the best way I can describe it, and I'm going to use some video compositing terminology here, is that it's as if someone isolated a part of the frame and attached it to a mask, and is moving the mask around independently of the frame. I notice it most often when there's a closeup of an actor's face. The side that is key lit stays steady, while the fill side, or darker side, moves around.

JW77
10-31-2009, 07:28 AM
I know what you're talking about.

I'll occasionally see it on my LCD set (46" Sharp Aquos). From time to time, usually when the camera is rapidly panning across a landscape, a tree or mountain will seem to get "stuck" for a fraction of a second and not move with the rest of the image. I'm using a new Toshiba upconverting DVD recorder hooked up via HDMI. I've had the television for about seven months, and I've only noticed this particular artifact four or five times, so it's not pervasive. I've never seen this happen on a true HD signal, though.

I think that the most likely culprit is some kind of compression artifact in the encoding of the DVD itself that's showing up on LCDs/HDTVs. DVDs utilize a compressed video signal that recycles old/redundant information, and that's what this looks like.

I've noticed the same thing on different set-ups; a friend of mine has a Sanyo LCD hooked up to a DVD player with the composite cable, and it does this A LOT, so I think we can probably rule out anything HDMI related. I wouldn't waste money on an expensive HDMI cable -- all the HDMI cable does is transport a digital signal, so there's nothing that can degrade. The signal is either there or it isn't; there's no such thing as a better HDMI picture.

X-human
10-31-2009, 05:02 PM
X-Human, the best way I can describe it, and I'm going to use some video compositing terminology here, is that it's as if someone isolated a part of the frame and attached it to a mask, and is moving the mask around independently of the frame. I notice it most often when there's a closeup of an actor's face. The side that is key lit stays steady, while the fill side, or darker side, moves around.

OK perfect, that's how I originally envisioned it.

MPEG-2 (like any compression) only retains pixels that change frame to frame, with the player left to build the changes on top of the new frame. So I would think that whatever is doing the processing isn't doing that right. It's building on top of frames older than it should. May be chocking in the buffer, which is memory holding the previous frame. I'd try turning noise reduction, EE, sharpening, and other enhancements just plain off to see if that helps. Then turn them back on one by one to see when it happens again. If the processor is doing more than its memory allows it'll lag behind. Personally I always have that junk off anyways.

What's doing the upconversion? It sounds like the player from your description. I'd do a search on the player model. Chipset may have gone bad, or it's just a crappy product.

Paff
10-31-2009, 08:54 PM
Can you turn off the up-conversion? (serious question, I don't have an up-converting DVD player, so I don't know how they work). Generally I find that a lot of "fake" signal processing causes more problems than they're worth. And by "fake", I mean making something that's low tech into a higher quality version. I.E., taking a mono soundtrack and turning it into 5.1, taking a 2-D movie and turning it into 3-D, taking a non-anamorphic transfer and zooming it in. You always lose something when you try that. Sometimes it works, other times it makes it worse. So here you're taking a SD DVD, and trying to force it to be an HD DVD.

Fistfuck
11-01-2009, 01:58 AM
Thanks guys.

X-human, I was thinking it was compression too. I do video when I'm not working on a feature, so I know all about I-frames and such. It makes perfect sense, except in the cases where the camera is static and other stationary shit is still moving around. This would lead me to believe it's TV's refresh rate not being high enough. On the other hand, it usually only happens to darker areas of the frame, which would suggest the player's codec again, since digital has a hard time making sense of black. After the holidays, I'll have to go through one-by-one and try everything that's been suggested.

Paff, yes, you can turn up conversion off. I get your point about fake signal processing. No, it's not true HD. However, I'm not about to drop $300 for a player and $20 to rebuy all the titles I own, especially not when I'm positive downloads will be taking over in a few years. This is a perfectly acceptable stopgap and DOES make a difference in viewing. I'm watching Halloween II as we speak and it feels like a completely different experience than I've had experienced since the first time I watched it 16 years ago.

KamuiX
11-01-2009, 02:13 AM
especially not when I'm positive downloads will be taking over in a few years.

I hope you're completely wrong on that aspect...unless broadband improves to the point where we can all download 25 or 50 GB Blu-Ray's, uncompressed, in a decent amount of time and without ISP bandwidth restrictions, NOTHING will come close to having HD content on a Blu-Ray. As nice as HD downloads on 360/PS3 and HD cable/satellite channels look, they don't compare whatsoever to a Blu-Ray at full bitrate.

horrorlover
11-01-2009, 04:20 AM
I hope you're completely wrong on that aspect...unless broadband improves to the point where we can all download 25 or 50 GB Blu-Ray's, uncompressed, in a decent amount of time and without ISP bandwidth restrictions, NOTHING will come close to having HD content on a Blu-Ray. As nice as HD downloads on 360/PS3 and HD cable/satellite channels look, they don't compare whatsoever to a Blu-Ray at full bitrate.

Not to mention there are people who DON'T have the internet, and they would probably still like to watch movies. As to the original topic, I have had problems with 1 of my blu rays having those same problems you described with the background moving, I'm not sure why it does it, all I can figure is that it was poorly encoded somehow.

Fistfuck
11-01-2009, 06:27 AM
I hope you're completely wrong on that aspect...unless broadband improves to the point where we can all download 25 or 50 GB Blu-Ray's, uncompressed, in a decent amount of time and without ISP bandwidth restrictions, NOTHING will come close to having HD content on a Blu-Ray. As nice as HD downloads on 360/PS3 and HD cable/satellite channels look, they don't compare whatsoever to a Blu-Ray at full bitrate.

You're entirely correct. At the same time, though, a 128kpbs .mp3 has nowhere near the fidelity of a CD. This is just how I foresee the market going about product delivery. I'm not saying one is better or worse, it's going to be a matter of convenience. Especially as we attain more and more devices that do the exact same thing. One download and you have The Princess Diaries 2 on your laptop, your iPhone, your 360.

And people not having Internet connections won't prevent the market from selling downloads. Nobody had a DVD player when they started selling DVDs.