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C.R
01-04-2001, 07:27 PM
Any films that make you feel 'hey, that goes waaay to far'? Any thing that really pisses you off? Misogyny riles me up... I guess I'm not aloud to say that what I think of The New York Ripper because last time I did the moderator of this site (which is fab by the way) censored me which is, may I say, REALLY HYPOCRITICAL given the 'freedom of speech thing' (but obviously not if it offends ye mighty web site owner huh?). Anyhow, what does annoy you in horror? Would be interested in hearing.

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Argento Fan 2003
01-04-2001, 07:35 PM
It really pisses me off that companies like Anchor Bay slack off. For example...Sleepaway Camp. HELLO the normal print is available almost everywhere. They just happened to get the only one with missing footage. I'm glad I didn't buy this DVD. I also hate it when a DVD I bought comes out like 4 months later unannounced as a huge definitive special edition. That's why I haven't bought Tenebre yet, if Anchor Bay releases an anamorphic transfer they might as will fix everything else that's wrong with it and put it in an LE tin like Suspiria and Opera.

Argento Fan 2003
01-04-2001, 07:35 PM
Ugh I didn't even press submit twice, Dave please delete the first reply.

nimereht
01-04-2001, 08:11 PM
Teenie bopper movies masquerading as horror movies really piss me off!!!! if i see one more trailer for these suck ass movies i will go over the edge! i.e scream et al.. how any self respecting "horror" fan can like these movies is beyond me...

the other thing that pisses me off is the whole comic book/dvd mentality...oohhh, the special limited edition of evil dead with a lock of sam raimi's hair! i'll buy 3, and bury them behind my house so that no light or air can get at them, thusly adding to their value!

sorry, i've had a bad day...

AceRimRat
01-04-2001, 08:12 PM
I don't think I find any one thing goes "over the top" for me consistently. Some aspects of some films make me uncomfortable, but it's more on a case-by-case basis.

I didn't see the flame-bait post on NYR - was too busy reading the Salo stuff http://www.horrordvds.com/forum/wink.gif - but there are times that film makes me uncomfortable in terms of mysogyny.

On the other hand, plenty of other perfectly mysogynistic stuff doesn't. I think it depends in part on the tone of the scene and tone of the film - for instance, quasi-rape/kill scenes (i.e. the opening of Evil Dead Trap or some of the NYR scenes) usually leave me cringing, but a good one can be a powerful part of a movie (i.e. the opening of Evil Dead Trap setting the mood), whereas I usually think consensual-sex/kill scenes are kind of funny (i.e. Jason Goes to Hell).

The thing is, and I say this in hopes of avoiding another flame war, stuff I don't think is for me, I usually don't see. Salo, for instance, holds zero interest for me. So I have no intention of tracking down a copy. I Spit on Your Grave is another one I just can't bring myself to watch.

I would imagine the animal killings that have been discussed in some of those cannibal movies may be uncomfortable, but I haven't seen any, so can't say.

Just my opinion on all of this, but I enjoy horror movies because they're fun, and scary, and I don't watch them to vent any sort of rage - and it's that kind of mean-spirited attitude in some films that bothers me.

Don't hate me, y'all. http://www.horrordvds.com/forum/smile.gif

Jeremy
01-04-2001, 08:13 PM
Things that really annoy me include...

Excessive delays on DVD release (ie, where's A Better Place????????)

Trying to do do anything on Windows Me, the most self-centered, slow and uncooperative operating system ever. I'm going to dig a bottomless pit and throw the CD in it.

Reading GARFIELD every morning. Is it just me, or did Jim Davis run out of ideas a loooooong time ago?

Dave
01-04-2001, 08:17 PM
C.R.

First up - I'm the owner of this site. I didn't delete your post, a moderator did. That being said, I fully support his actions. The percentage of moderation here where we actually take action is probably about .5%. I saw your post. It seemed like flame bait to me too.

Just don't start personal attacks, and don't try to start flame wars. Then you'll be fine. http://www.horrordvds.com/forum/smile.gif

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Dave
01-04-2001, 08:25 PM
On to the topic at hand...

I have Last House on the Left DVD coming in tomorrow. While I'm not really for misogyny, I can separate the difference between fact and fiction. It IS just a movie, after all. Seeing people murdered in the news upsets me, yet I have no problem watching fictitious movies where people are being hacked up left and right.

Movies involving misogyny aren't particularly my thing, but it would upset me to watch one for review purposes or what not. Same thing with cannibal movies. I don't like them, but I'll watch one to review on the site (e.g. Mountain of the Cannibal God, Cannibal Ferox).

What does bother me is that when these movies have real animal violence. I do understand the animals die in nature every day, but to add it into a movie for entertainment value (?) - I find that disgusting.

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Argento Fan 2003
01-04-2001, 08:42 PM
Dave I was asking him to delete my post, I wasn't complaining about it. It came up twice on the board and I realized that after it returned me to the topic. I didn't know you weren't the moderator.

Dave
01-04-2001, 08:46 PM
Argento Fan 2003

Huh? I wasn't addressing you. My comment was towards C.R. about an entirely different issue. Nothing to do with your double post....

http://www.horrordvds.com/forum/smile.gif

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David W. Anderson - dave@horrordvds.com
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Argento Fan 2003
01-04-2001, 09:39 PM
Sorry about that!

C.R
01-04-2001, 11:01 PM
flamebait or not it is still my right to express myself right? you are, thus, pro censorship mefriend and any arguement to the contrary is wank!!! you didn't agree with what I said you think it should never be said. Hmmm, kinda censorious don't yout hink. Just keep up the good site and stop trying to justify censorship on things YOU find personally offensive. I'm with the guy on rape... but Last house is a really meaningful and powerful film. The DVD release looks ace.

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Jason25
01-04-2001, 11:10 PM
Jeremy, I agree with you. I've had A Better Place on preorder with express.com since 1/13/00 ! I'm really getting tired of waiting for it to come out.

C.R. - I'm the one who deleted your post. If you are going to cry about it, say something to me, the one who deleted it. Give it a rest already. I understand eveyone has their own views but no one appreciates when someone posts a message to attack someone personally like you did in that post,It is uncalled for and will not be tolerated. End of discussion.

DVD Connoisseur
01-04-2001, 11:13 PM
Will the madness ever end?

I thought we'd seen the end of these showdowns in the forum section.

Chill out C.R. and curb the bad language. Your post looks to me like another attempt to start another round of arguments. Debating the merits of any film is fine but I for one am growing tired of the same age old issues being churned out regarding censorship, morality, etc. As I've said before, this is a friendly, intelligent site. There's really no excuses for bad language or aggressive tones. Am I being over sensitive? Guys, tell me if I'm wrong.

Dave
01-05-2001, 12:06 AM
you are, thus, pro censorship mefriend and any arguement to the contrary is wank!!!


Okay. I'm pro censorship. Deal with it or leave. Your choice.

DVD Connoisseur - You're not being over sensative at all. You're absolutely right.

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Webmaster - www.horrordvds.com (http://www.horrordvds.com)

ctyner
01-05-2001, 12:10 AM
This board isn't a democracy, C.R., and if you don't like it...well...there are enough forums out there that you might find something better suited to your needs.

Personally, I don't find Dave and the mods to be heavy-handed at all. Closed threads and deleted posts seem to be very rare occurrences here...

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AceRimRat
01-05-2001, 12:46 AM
Hey, CR, I tried to put up an intelligent, reasonable response in an effort to further an intelligent, reasonable discussion. It seemed like it would be fun.

But now you're going and getting insulting again. (Not to me personally, but to Dave and the mods, who do a great job on this site and forum IMHO.) The horse is dead (yeah, I know, animal cruelty) so quit beatin' it. Please.

You make some good points during your posts, I think, but any valid argument you make is likely to get lost amid the hard feelings you provoke.

To relate this to the thread, it's like these cannibal movies might be good, but the animal death stuff annoys and upsets people. Your thoughts might be good, but the name-calling annoys and upsets people.

I hope you can take this more as advice than criticism.

Jeremy
01-05-2001, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by C.R:
flamebait or not it is still my right to express myself right?

Certainly. The problem is the way you're expressing yourself. Take your comments on cannibal films - a lot of people don't like the animal violence and are revolted by it, just like you. However, you're confrontational tone, and your ability to be just plain rude, turned everyone against you. Same with your comments on Salo and New York Ripper.


...stop trying to justify censorship on things YOU find personally offensive.

Oh, the irony.

C.R
01-05-2001, 07:27 AM
Well, if you're pro-censorship then that's cool. At least you admitted it. Fair game. But my New York ripper post was not a personal attack on anyone at all. In fact, it was merely a personal point of view and one which many people I know actually hold. Surely, then, such views have the right to be spoken? Ultimately it leads back to what annoys me and apart from such obvious things as animal torture, the one thing that really does annoy me is misogyny. I hate it when a film exists purely to demonstrate bound or naked women being hacked up or abused. The New york ripper is such a film, and I can think of others. Perhaps anyone else agrees or disagrees?

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Jamm
01-05-2001, 11:10 AM
I have to agree with Dave in that seeing stories of murder, cannibalism, rape, various forms of abuse (animal or human), torture, etc. in the news is really very unsettling. What I find annoying is that the media seems to feel the need to sensationalize these types of stories. However, in movies, anything goes for me since I know it's not real. I don't think I've ever seen anything in a movie that's too much for mee to handle.

n1ghtmare
01-05-2001, 12:36 PM
Mysogonistic horror is one of my favorite sub-genres. It's just so damn brutal. But something that does upset me is real animal cruelty. Who cares about humans? Not me.

fishhead
01-05-2001, 02:11 PM
Hmmm...I was originally going to say "DVDs going out of print really annoy me", but this thread seems to have gone way beyond that level of discourse http://www.horrordvds.com/forum/wink.gif

Misogyny truly annoys me, but it's not an easy thing to define. In my view, there is a certain line between seeing women getting killed and seeing women getting killed in a way that seems to get the filmmaker excited. The latter is what I find disturbing and horrific.



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Frank and Ozzy, Bad Taste

ctyner
01-05-2001, 02:36 PM
Some of my favorite quotes sort of related to this:

Dario Argento -- "I like women, especially beautiful ones. If they have a good face and figure, I would much prefer to watch them being murdered than an ugly girl or man. I certainly don't have to justify myself to anyone about this. I don't care what anyone thinks or reads into it."

Brian De Palma -- "If you have a haunted house and you have a woman walking around with a candelabrum, you fear more for her than you would for a husky man."

Lloyd Kaufman -- "The erotic contents of a Troma movie are important to sales. I cannot continue making movies without that insurance."

I actually wrote a paper that's somewhat related to this discussion. It's really bad, but if you're bored... http://people.clemson.edu/~ctyner/357.doc



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SantaSangre
01-05-2001, 04:16 PM
Being a woman, I am very disturbed by the violence directed at women in horror movies. I still love them, but that's just because I can't be rational when it comes to movies. I really love Cannibal Holocaust, too, but the animal cruelty disgusts me. However, I actually think the objectification of women you see in any of the videos played on MTV is far more destructive to society's view of women. The other day I watched a few videos and thought to myself, no wonder I hated myself as a teenager. Not even the actresses really look like that and these people come right out and tell you that you must to be worthy of love, happiness, etc. Just listen to that godawful Liquid Dream (think that's what it's called) song and you'll see what I'm talking about. Whoa! Did that turn into a rant or what? Trust me, though, I don't say these things out of jealousy...just to make the point that society has targeted the wrong format (horror movies) to stop the degradation of women.
Carey

hojimoji
01-05-2001, 06:26 PM
Ctyner- That wasn't a bad paper at all. How did the professor take it?

And along similar lines is an article I found several months ago: http://nasty.cx/essays/sf-07172000.html

It should also be noted that pretty much everyone except the hero/herione is a 2-dimensional character. Yes, women do get picked on, but all we have to do is examine the Evil Dead trilogy to see that Ash gets the crap kicked out of him, and his troubles never let up.

The true inequity in horror films is more likely in who does the killing, not who is killed.

I also have to second fishead's "DVD's going out of print annoys me".

G.

C.R
01-05-2001, 07:08 PM
Yeah, but Argento never attacks what makes a woman a woman. Thus, I never feel his stuff qualifies as 'misogyny'... let me explain that. in the New york Ripper women have their naked bodies hacked up, their breasts and so on are carved into in great detail, and usually filmed in a manner which makes us the perpetrator. In Argento's films women are offed in the same manner as men and possibly the most gruesome scene in any Argento film is the bloke being stabbed repeatedly in Opera. In Argento's film often a female is the psycho... lending a whole new level to this. What's more, Tenebrae kinda addresses many of these criticisms and, in my opinion, in an intelligent and compulsive manner. The New York Ripper, Bloodsucking Freaks or even Maniac just exist, I think, to show females being brutally slashed up. Ditto for Cannibal Holocaust and House on the Edge of the Park... in both of these films I felt quite offended by the 'morality' of the person behind the camera and the, let's face it, pointless but gloating sexual torture on offer. On the contrary, I think Last house has a real brillance to it and has something to say. I didn't like I Spit on your Grave but I'd defend the basic point of view in that as well. Mother's Day is a difficult one so I'm holding out there (but I did enjoy some of it).
I have films I wouldn't ever dream of showing my girlfriend, but Tenebrae isn't one of them and she really liked it. I guess that counts for soemthing?

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hojimoji
01-05-2001, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by C.R:
in both of these films I felt quite offended by the 'morality' of the person behind the camera


I find this concept funny. From your Salo posts C.R. it seems you have a serious problem differentiating between the art and the artist. I think Frank Zappa said it best: "I wrote a song about dental floss and nobody's teeth got cleaner." If anything the morality of the audience should be question for enjoying such movies, but I don't believe in judging things like that.

And how then do we judge such things as Faces of Death? If the director only captures what would happen normally (i.e. a car crash he didn't make happen), no matter how sickening, does that mean he is immoral?

The implication of morals also intimates a responsibility I am not willing to assign to any artist.


G.

ctyner
01-05-2001, 09:31 PM
hojimoji: I'd have to dig it out to check to see exactly, but I got either an A or an A+. To an extent, I wrote the paper knowing the sorts of things that he likes to see (he's obsessed with the concept of phallic power, so I made sure to mention that repeatedly, despite the fact that the filmmakers I mentioned more than likely didn't even consider that)...

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DVD Connoisseur
01-06-2001, 12:17 AM
Many, many years ago (I guess it would have been around 1987), I read a British book about what was referred to over here as the "video nasty" phenomenon. Basically, the tabloids in the UK had blamed films like Suspiria, Evil Dead, Driller Killer, Tenebre, Dawn of the Dead, Cannibal Holocaust, I Spit On Your Grave, etc, etc, for society's problems. If an old lady had been mugged in London, the tabloids would link this to the widespread availability of the video nasties. In a move that was swift and an absolutely knee-jerk reaction to the building tabloid induced hysteria, many films were instantly "banned and burned." Films as innocent as Halloween 3 were cut. The shelves of every video store in the UK were decimated as titles were taken away to be checked against a central register. It was the UK's darkest hour for film fans. Anyway, the book I was reading analysed in detail a few of the offending films. The ones that stay in mind are Cannibal Holocaust and I Spit On Your Grave.
Strong arguments were put forward by psychologists that these films actually put over a final positive message to the viewers.
I Spit On Your Grave can be seen as a very feminist movie - the rapists are shown as learing animals, there is no titillation in the scenes - it is a harrowing experience. In the movie, the female lead is the strongest character and the audience supports her and sympathises with her.
Cannibal Holocaust is seen by some critics as a comment on capitalist companies disregard for developing nations, the physical rape of the rainforests, etc.
There are always two sides to any argument...

C.R
01-06-2001, 12:11 PM
DVD connoisseur - the book which you are thinking of is The Video Nasties by Martin Barker. The defense of I Spit on Your Grave is written by the films actual screenwriter and is, thus, horribly biased - but it is interesting all the same. What he also says is that I Spit is technically superior to Halloween and a much better film which gives you some idea of how much he actually knows! A better arguement in the films favour can be seen by Carol Clover in her book Men Womena and Chainsaws.
The Cannibal Holocaust defense was written by Barker himself and it was a review of the UK version which removed over six minutes of very brutal animal cruelty and violence. I don't believe Holocaust has many sub texts other than to shock the viewer. That's just my opinion though. As for filming things which would have happened anyway... that's fine - after all, the Zapruder footage of the JFK assassination should say something to the USA about its horribly lenient gun laws. However, Faces of Death uses this sort of thing to salacious means and in an attempt to gain profit from other peoples suffering. That makes me uncomfortable. You cannot differentiate the filmmaker from the film otherwise a full century of film theroy and the entire autuer theory is shat down the drains.

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C.R
01-06-2001, 12:14 PM
one more thing - Halloween 3 was not cut by the BBFC it was cut by Thorn EMI who were hoping to curb their chance of prosecution from the DDP (who got the likes of Cannibal Holocaust in hot water) by achieving a tame 15 certificate. The full verison can be seen on the USA DVD release by Goodtimes which is also letterboxed and looks lovely.

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DVD Connoisseur
01-06-2001, 03:47 PM
Cheers, C.R. You're 100% correct about the book - I can just about visualise it after all this time (I read it in an afternoon at the University library when I was bored with assigments, course work, etc). It was an interesting read but I was frustrated that I hadn't seen many of the films mentioned at that point in time!

I was a little vague about the cutting of movies (it's been a long week and I was tired and emotional when I finally logged on). The distributors / studios, as you say, started hacking away at video-versions of films in order to avoid possible prosecution. It was certainly a dark time and, thankfully, things are certainly changing for the better in the UK (in my opinion).

C.R
01-06-2001, 04:32 PM
Things are definately changing for the better in the UK. I just got my DVD of Torso through the post and I can't wait to see it. hope it's not crap, I spent tweny two quid on it (giallo addict that I am). Look for uncut versions of The Beyond, City of the Living Dead and The Slayer in your local WH Smith soon (sadly supplied by Vipco who can't really do any good, be it getting a good print or finding some nice extras).

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DVD Connoisseur
01-06-2001, 04:53 PM
C.R. I must admit, I love the dark "giallo" thrillers. I haven't seen Torso yet - I've seen mixed reviews but it sounds like my "cup of tea."
Do you buy many UK releases? I tend to stick with the US DVDs. The quality of Image (except for Twitch of the Death Nerve!) and Anchor Bay (to name just two) DVDs are positively breathtaking at times.

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