Originally Posted by shape22
Applying silly PC standards to Roger Corman genre films is a losing proposition. It sounds like you'd be happier watching ridiculously manipulative Hollywood "evil white people" propaganda like Haggis's Crash.
So long as you're judging me based on what it "sounds" like I think; good call... Let me tell you what you
sound like- a guy who defends a bad movie because it can never be PC. Kinda dumb.
Oh, and by the way: Piranha
. Remember the part where I said that movie was one of the best horror films of the 1970's? I've actually said that several times in the last couple years. What do you assume I think is PC about that one?
Originally Posted by shape22
And were you really expecting something as stately and respectable as Wise's The Haunting from a film called Humanoids From The Deep? I have a tough time believing anyone could approach this film 32 years post-release with expectations as out of whack as yours.
Filmmakers like Corman and Kaufman made films like this to amuse people frustrated by the boundaries of polite society--and to anger close-minded reactionaries. Congratulations for taking the bait.
I didn't exactly expect anyone on this board to agree with me. But, what difference does it make to you how many Corman and Troma movies I've seen? If Corman makes a cash-in on Piranha, and decides to follow that same formula by putting in a social issue plot, based on Piranha's intelligence and the fact that the director was a woman AND the original cast and crew had nothing but lofty intentions with this film... how the hell can you argue I'm the one who didn't know what to expect? Filmmakers have been using the guise of the history / reputation of cheap 50's (and therebouts) exploitation, sci-fi, monster, creature, and thing-from-the-deep flicks to make diversive, challenging, intelligent, high-quality low-budget films for nearly a decade on either side of Humanoids. I hope you bore that in mind before you made your cheap reply with intent to bury me by labeling me a Crash-lover.
For your information, I happen to think VERY highly of (most of) the films Jim Wynorski made for Roger Corman- not a single one of them the slightest bit socially progressive. Do you know how many members of this board were actually willing to back me up when I say I believe Sorority House Massacre 2 is a great flick? I counted 1. Yet, there's a huge difference between a movie where women take their tops off and a movie where women are slowly and graphically manhandled by not just men by alien monsters, their bodies left on the ground in graphic position long after being raped- used as screen decoration, impregnated and then forced to DIE / be further mutilated while giving birth in a wholly meritless "shock" scene. By creatures that rip their bodies apart. We are talking about a film that is in no uncertain terms about rape itself. Taking what exploitation movies would deem an easy target and treating women as utter garbage. In as many ways as they can. I'm sorry, but the defense that something is great merely because it's offensive is pure bullshit. And I think even the people who've made some of what you'd defend would agree with me. Nothing is effective or great without knowing what the fuck it's doing.
Yes, on one level, nobody who keeps the film alive in any circle will ever take it seriously. But we're not just talking about boobs. Troma've made a great many movie celebrating pointless T&A. And I'm not stupid enough to label Corman anything because of this one serious misstep. Nor did I. I laid the blame where it belongs: on the people who say it's so great without taking responsibility for the kind of movie they're supporting.
Originally Posted by Anthropophagus
You are aware of the term 'exploitation film', a term which has been applied to Corman's catalog extensively. It's also called Humanoids From The Deep and the poster art is hardly misleading-were you expecting Fried Green Tomatoes or Driving Miss Daisy? The shit you criticize so vehemently in this post is exactly what most fans of late seventies and eighties horror look for. Aspects the genre has become known for: Silly effects, laughable subplots, excessive T&A, subpar acting, violence, and a degree of unfortunate misogny which is intrinsic to North American society not just horror films. I suppose the woman getting a blade in her vagina in The Mutilator was not misogynistic at all? How about the twenty minute rape scene in I Spit On Your Grave which borders on rape porn not unlike Forced Entry? The woman getting hung up like a piece of meat in Texas Chainsaw Massacre?
'What a wide world of equal opportunity this film envisioned. Of course, let's take the director at her own word'-You were expecting a film with Humanoids in the title to become some sort of beacon for the feminist movement? Is that it?
Really criticizing an exploitation film for being exploitative is akin to criticizing gangsta rap for promoting criminal ideology-moot point-either you can live with it or not, if not don't watch or listen.
You didn't like it, it seems like tons of people on this board did, refer to the recent poll for more evidence. You can always stick to homogenized shit like Scream and I Know What You Did Last Summer.
EXCEPT FOR THE VERY LAST SENTENCE OF YOUR POST (hope I'm making that crystal clear), that is a very excellent point. All of it.
However, I think I'm going to need you to put "unfortunate misogny which is intrinsic to North American society
" into perspective. What real-life events were films roughly similar to Humanoids sincerely a comment on? I won't doubt you that exploitation films did in fact do some of that. But, I'm arguing that this film is different. The degree to which this movie treats women like shit MUST be taken into account separately from any movie merely doing something that could be deemed misogynistic. And that degree shown in Humanoids is much more telling of that film than anything in society.
I hope you weren't assuming I have anything complimentary to say about I Spit on Your Grave at all. And, as for you bringing it up at all, I don't believe I had to say that movie was as bad or worse than Humanoids to voice a criticism about
I see what you were attempting to suggest by mentioning Texas Chainsaw Massacre, but I do have to punch you a little for that one. That film is one of THE... GREAT achievements in horror, ALL-TIME great achievements, and can never, on any level, be compared to something like Humanoids from the Deep. EVER. And I'm seriously offended by your doing so...but I'll get over it. I still, however, see what you were trying to say and you have a decent point. In context far removed from Humanoids (FAR FAR FAR removed). That film actually and honestly had an intelligent point to make about people being treated like meat. That scene can only be accused of treating her differently than the men because she had previously been allowed to see more horror, more inside the nightmare of that "family"'s world. In a more cheap way of regarding the scene, she got a better role than the other guys in the movie. Not because she got killed. That's another thing entirely. She got a better role because what she saw in that sequence previous to being caught by Leatherface was so memorable and vital to the film. Its' loose technical-semblance of a story, its' groundbreaking visual motifs and cinematography, and to be even cheaper: that moment that really freaked people out. But also made them very uncomfortable.
And not every horror film can be great because they achieve something that freaks people out or makes them uncomfortable. Despite how that shitty argument has been used by so many Horror-Digital forum members to in vain hopefully score TCM '03 or so much of that French shit (most of) you guys eat up a little credit. It has to have serious
cultural, political, psychological, and/or social insight / foresight to be of the merit of Tobe Hooper's Texas Chainsaw Massacre. More than just brutality and the ability to make pretentious kids who just like
brutality to spout nonsense and feel good that what they like isn't as dumb and worthless as it actually is.
But I maintain that your post was mostly strong- I clearly didn't express myself very well. Though, that's far from any excuse to suggest that I Know You Did Last Summer must be more up my alley than "late 70's and 80's horror." We merely define the genre in different ways. You see that period more for, I'm guessing: Maniac, Cannibal Holocaust, Spit again, New York Ripper, Mother's Day, House on the Edge of the Park, and - for fun let me throw in something slightly more kid-friendly by comparison - My Bloody Valentine. Mainly: the low points. I choose to see it for the high points: Halloween, Dawn of the Dead, Phantasm, Suspiria, The Evil Dead, Creepshow, American Werewolf in London, Piranha again, The Fog, Videodrome, Tenebre, Q the Winged Serpent, The Shining, Rabid, Cat People, and Nightmare on Elm Street.
And I think Scream is one of the best horror films of the 90's. At least that film had a brain in its' head. Unlike 99% of everything to come afterward. Its' only real flaw is being trendy, making it very dated.