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View Poll Results: Pick five: 1975
Jaws 55 90.16%
Deep Red 49 80.33%
Picnic at Hanging Rock 19 31.15%
The Stepford Wives 16 26.23%
They Came from Within (Shivers) 39 63.93%
Race with the Devil 19 31.15%
The Reincarnation of Peter Proud 2 3.28%
Night Train Murders 10 16.39%
The Beast (La bÍte) 3 4.92%
Lips of Blood 4 6.56%
Night of the Seagulls 12 19.67%
Ilsa: She Wolf of the SS 14 22.95%
One Man and His Pig 0 0%
Bug 3 4.92%
The Devil's Rain 12 19.67%
The Ghoul 1 1.64%
The Devil Within Her (I Don't Want to Be Born) 1 1.64%
Exorcism (Demoniac) 2 3.28%
Trip with the Teacher 1 1.64%
The Giant Spider Invasion 4 6.56%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-16-2013, 11:36 PM   #16
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They Came From Within
Jaws
Deep Red
The Stepford Wives

haven't seen a lot of those! I need to see Picnic at Hanging Rock!
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:42 AM   #17
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Had to pick Giant Spider Invasion. Saw it on a double bill with Godzilla Vs Megalon. It's not the greatest film but has great memories.
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:55 AM   #18
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Jaws is not a horror film. Never has been, never will be.

If Jaws is a horror film for less than 20 seconds of a shark onscreen biting people and brooding a little bit underwater, every single film Tim Burton made from 1984 to 1992 were horror films. And so is Spaceballs, the 90's Addams Family movies, Sybil, The Witches of Eastwick, The Never-Ending Story, Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery...

Please, people, can we stop this madness?

Anyway, I didn't vote because there are far too many mis-categorized films. As deeply horrifying as The Stepford Wives is, if Westworld isn't a horror film- neither is SW. Picnic at Hanging Rock isn't even scary, it's mysterious and hypnotic but there's nothing horrific about it even in theory. By virtue of the way it flows, it isn't suspenseful either. Ilsa and Night Train Murders are exploitation. Etc.
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Old 07-22-2013, 05:19 PM   #19
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I will never stop calling Jaws a horror film!

The first half is definitely horror (POV shots from the killer's perspective, a head popping out of a boat, the way the attacks are filmed and the music that is used to unsettle - to this day, I still find the attacks disturbing and upsetting, a gratuitous shot of a bloody chewed off leg falling to the bottom of the ocean floor, crabs making a feast out of Chrissie's severed arm), the second half I would agree with many others that it plays more like an action adventure but even then, there are a few jump scares thrown in.

I think the horror in Stepford Wives is the horror of conformity. I haven't seen Westworld so I don't know how one dictates the other but I've always seen Stepford Wives as a satirical kind of horror.

I didn't find Picnic at Hanging Rock scary either but there was a strong sense of dread and anxiety along with the mysterious hynoptic element. The horror element comes from the existential anxiety of things that we will never know and events we may never understand but will continue to haunt us.
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:49 PM   #20
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Jaws is definitely a horror film. It may also be considered a thiller or adventure film or whatever but it is still horror. I can't recall any other film that affected people the same way. How many of you have heard someone say that after seeing Jaws they wouldn't go in the water? If that isn't horrific nothing is. Virtually any film you see can be categorized in multiple genres but to say Jaws isn't horror is just to argue.
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:35 AM   #21
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I will never stop calling Jaws a horror film!
But you'll be wrong.


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The first half is definitely horror
Sounds good in theory but I think I came up with enough examples to prove that filmmakers have done this before, cast certain scenes to feel like horror when it's only to play with the audience, throw them off, etc. The opening of Blow Out, for example. Every single scene that ever joked about Psycho. For the joke to work, they made it feel like a horror film. Until it was revealed the knife was a banana, the shadow was a cleaning woman's, etc. And I completely disagree that the film can be measured by true halves. I'll agree that Spielberg wanted some of the cinematic harshness of 70's horror to aid him in making the first half scary but his style does not work with horror. Otherwise we would be having this same discussion with Jurassic Park and our roles would be switched. That entire film is very aesthetically horror, but can't follow through on tone and has to have the romanticized, melty heart, (forced) sentimentality.


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POV shots from the killer's perspective
In 1 or 2 scenes. In a 2 hour film. I know this film well enough to say neither of these does a horror film make.


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a head popping out of a boat
There have been jump scares in non-horror films.


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the way the attacks are filmed
In less than 4 scenes. In a 2 hour film. With the forced sentimentality - got to remind you how BIG this rule is. The only exception to it is Poltergeist. Let me help put things into even greater perspective: Ghostbusters is sentimentality-free. And contains even more scenes of "horror" with actual freaking monsters. By these accounts, it sure as hell should be a horror film... but it's not.


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and the music that is used to unsettle
Which could be argued about every single thriller ever made. Poorly in some cases, but only then because it's debatable every composer really knew what they were doing.


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to this day, I still find the attacks disturbing and upsetting
Ehhh- Piranha was much better at this (the original, of course): sentimentality-free.


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a gratuitous shot of a bloody chewed off leg falling to the bottom of the ocean floor
Oh dear, do I have to remind you of how graphic the diner scene from Spaceballs and the "comic" reveal of the decapitated henchman in Austin Powers were (watch them again)? Any film can do that. Hell- when was the last time you saw Hard to Kill? Every time Seagal makes contact with someone, a cracking sound as loud as a tree can be heard. No, it isn't visually graphic but this whole "this film affected me so deeply" business doesn't make me want to go the extra mile on Jaws. Not unless you want to use Spielberg's sentimentality to argue he was being subversive. (Which I think just might be impossible.)


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I think the horror in Stepford Wives is the horror of conformity. I haven't seen Westworld so I don't know how one dictates the other but I've always seen Stepford Wives as a satirical kind of horror.
Now, this film is debatable. The sentimentality is downright subversive here, as it's used to sell the vision of Stepford as ideal- a suburban version of the Dawn of the Dead deathtrap mall. But, Westworld is a profoundly disturbing, cold, heartless, desolate wasteland of a film... with a lot of thematic weight to it. So, like I was getting at- if anything's horror. But, eventually they both split to thriller. One more aesthetically and the other tonally.


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I didn't find Picnic at Hanging Rock scary either but there was a strong sense of dread and anxiety along with the mysterious hynoptic element. The horror element comes from the existential anxiety of things that we will never know and events we may never understand but will continue to haunt us.
Any genre can use anxiety for tension or existentialism for provocation. Doesn't dictate the film's actual genre as much as you may think. Especially since I firmly believe Stepford Wives and, of course especially Picnic were trying to surpass genre labeling to be unique and unforgettable.


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Jaws is definitely a horror film.
Definitely not.


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It may also be considered a thiller or adventure film or whatever
Whatever? No, I really pick up on these things and I did not get the impression Jaws was trying to surpass genre labeling. That would not have jived with Universal.


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I can't recall any other film that affected people the same way.
That's the same thing as saying the masses have a keen sense of what the genre is and they clearly do not. As any number of people who decried the entire post-Scream era of teen slashers will tell you. And any filmmaker who's been making these films for a decade or more. By that token, Jaws would have single-handedly reminded everyone who's ever stared at someone cruising the horror section in a rental store that horror is just drama or comedy with a few death scenes in it.


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How many of you have heard someone say that after seeing Jaws they wouldn't go in the water? If that isn't horrific nothing is.
Horrific concepts don't make a horror film. Who told you they do? That's like a spit in the face to the entire aesthetic, atmospheric, surreal, and gothic styles which enriched the genre for decades.


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Virtually any film you see can be categorized in multiple genres but to say Jaws isn't horror is just to argue.
After this post, I contend that you're the one just arguing. It could not be clearer once you've taken everything I've said into account. But I get how the last 10 years in what's been sold under the banner of horror would confuse some people. I get why you're saying this but it holds no water. (Ironically.) Just look at Spielberg himself. He's never made a horror film. Like Tim Burton, who I mentioned before (but who actually made a horror film- Sleepy Hollow), he uses horror every now and then to flesh out certain scenes. Doesn't change the genre of the film 1 bit.
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:12 PM   #22
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I'll agree that Spielberg wanted some of the cinematic harshness of 70's horror to aid him in making the first half scary but his style does not work with horror. Otherwise we would be having this same discussion with Jurassic Park and our roles would be switched. That entire film is very aesthetically horror, but can't follow through on tone and has to have the romanticized, melty heart, (forced) sentimentality.
I don't find Jaws to be very sentimental. The death scenes are ruthless. For a film assignment, I had to analyze a few scenes and one I chose was Chrissie's death scene. Watching the scene once is disturbing but watching it over and over; it really gets under your skin. The way she screams for a God that is deaf to her very existence and how violently her body is dragged across the water. The way the camera is positioned at water level to give a strong sense of claustrophobia, especially with Chrissie struggling and slapping the water in the viewer's face. It's all done to disturb and unsettle. There is no scene in Jurassic Park that matches this intensity. The music and POV shots are more akin to Friday the 13th than Jurassic Park. These early scenes also set up the fear of when the three men are on the boat as we know what the shark is capable of doing. I am sure the last half was more scary when people were seeing the film for the first time and didn't know if the men would survive or not.

"There is a creature alive today that has survived millions of years of evolution without change, without passion, and without logic. It lives to kill; a mindless, eating machine. It will attack and devour anything. It is as if God created the devil and gave him…jaws."

Even the trailer and poster markets it as the horror film it is, although Spielberg & friends will dispute it as horror because they think it's a bastard genre much like Friedkin will not call The Exorcist a horror movie.

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In 1 or 2 scenes. In a 2 hour film. I know this film well enough to say neither of these does a horror film make ...

There have been jump scares in non-horror films ...

Which could be argued about every single thriller ever made. Poorly in some cases, but only then because it's debatable every composer really knew what they were doing. ...

Ehhh- Piranha was much better at this (the original, of course): sentimentality-free. ...

Oh dear, do I have to remind you of how graphic the diner scene from Spaceballs and the "comic" reveal of the decapitated henchman in Austin Powers were (watch them again)? Any film can do that. Hell- when was the last time you saw Hard to Kill? Every time Seagal makes contact with someone, a cracking sound as loud as a tree can be heard. No, it isn't visually graphic but this whole "this film affected me so deeply" business doesn't make me want to go the extra mile on Jaws. Not unless you want to use Spielberg's sentimentality to argue he was being subversive. (Which I think just might be impossible.)
I don't think it's about ripping each of the examples I gave you apart and looking to see how each element can be found individually in other movies but looking at how all of those elements come together to make it horror. Most of the things I mentioned are working in tandem and not individually like the examples you give.


If you find the death scenes in Jaws sentimental and less effective than Piranha, we can probably stop there. There is nothing sentimental about doing a wide shot of Quinn being chewed up and then doing a close-up shot of him spitting up blood. Most suspense-adventure films do not focus on the gory aspects like Jaws does or makes them as intense.

The shark does not even act like a typical shark in the movie but more like an unstoppable monster. So much so that marine biologists that worked on the movie disowned it. A real shark would not devise a plan to get the fishermen out to sea and then sink the boat. A real shark would not attack the metal cage like that and just keep coming back like a ruthless maniac and be able to take barrels under water.

As far as horror movies not being able to be sentimental - Bride of Frankenstein? May? Deathdream? Carrie? I think it's this rigid view of what horror films can and cannot have that make a lot of the modern ones so similar and boring.

The truth is you and I could go around in circles. You have rigid parameters on what constitutes horror and my parameters are set more openly. I don't think either is wrong as long as you can provide reasoning for why you think the way you think. People find different things disturbing and horrific. For example, I find the death scenes in Jaws horrific. You find them sentimental. And a mother grieving over her dead son does not seem like "forced" sentimentality to me but a realistic portrayal.

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Any genre can use anxiety for tension or existentialism for provocation. Doesn't dictate the film's actual genre as much as you may think. Especially since I firmly believe Stepford Wives and, of course especially Picnic were trying to surpass genre labeling to be unique and unforgettable.
I didn't necessarily call Picnic a horror movie but was discussing where I thought the horror element was. However, when I hear someone call Picnic a thinking man's horror film - it does not offend me as again, my parameters are not as narrow as most horror movies IMO have a lot of genre elements working within them and what makes the genre truly unique and varied.
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:08 AM   #23
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I don't find Jaws to be very sentimental.
Weren't you the one arguing that the film has 2 halves? Perhaps sentimental isn't the only word for what I'm getting at. The film's characters are still operating entirely within Drama Modes. When the shark shows up, only once is it used in a scene where horror was the point. Once it's for a joke. The other times, it is only to move Roy Scheider's story. And he is completely motivated by Drama. Everything he does is something about Drama. Must avenge son's attack. Must protect family. Must stand up for my community. Must keep the team together / strong. Must bond with my traveling mates.

And, did I not mention the fingers scene? A scene like that doesn't go in a horror film. Anywhere. Point blank: Spielberg didn't want this to be a horror film. He got the accolades and clout he did because this is a drama. The reason I don't like the film is because it's not a horror film. And a guy like that doesn't regret the Hollywoodizing of his film. He has to still be the most famous and popular film director in the history of filmmaking itself.


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The death scenes are ruthless.
That has nothing to do with genre. Never has. Never will.


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The way she screams for a God that is deaf to her very existence
Uh... Does this now make Bad Lieutenant a horror film?


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There is no scene in Jurassic Park that matches this intensity.
Jurassic Park is creepy. When you "look into the eyes" of the shark in Jaws, it's the same as looking into a toy's eyes. Nada. Try saying the same about those damn dinosaurs!

Also, horror is not about what's more intense in theory. That is very much like saying the aesthetic, atmospheric, surreal, and gothic enhancements of styles were never important. That mood is of low inherent value to horror and graphicness is always key.


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These early scenes also set up the fear of when the three men are on the boat as we know what the shark is capable of doing. I am sure the last half was more scary when people were seeing the film for the first time and didn't know if the men would survive or not.
Quint was too hyper-masculine with no great underlying substance, Scheider spent too much time looking like he didn't know what was going on, and Dreyfuss cemented the point of the latter half of the film being: we the audience must enjoy the hunt and root for the killing of the shark, not be terrified the guys aren't going to make it. I believe the film is split down the middle too. Half drama and half adventure flick. The shark being the slightest bit scary (which he never was to me) was only to try and enhance the adventure. Had nothing to do with horror. Not even fleetingly.


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The shark does not even act like a typical shark in the movie but more like an unstoppable monster.
That's mighty interpretative of you. Don't forget who the movie is being hung off of- Brody. Not the shark. The shark is surely portrayed as unstoppable... but if you remember, Jason actually got up out of the lake. On more than one occasion. As infrequently as he ever actually left Camp Crystal Lake, the camp wasn't portrayed as the water in Jaws- that was the lake. (Watch Part 2 again especially.)


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I don't think it's about ripping each of the examples I gave you apart and looking to see how each element can be found individually in other movies but looking at how all of those elements come together to make it horror. Most of the things I mentioned are working in tandem and not individually like the examples you give.
Hate to sound like a steel trap here but not a single thing you've said has changed a thing. Frankly, it's not who calls what film what after it's made. And the structure of the film is wildly unlike any other horror film of its time or later. Except Poltergeist. Which has an overwhelming undercurrent of creepiness- the music score is legitimately creepy, beautiful, and haunting at the same time, and plays throughout. And the characters have dramatic purposes but are actually rocked by the horror itself. As individual people. Rattled so badly that they are beyond laughing, standing triumphant, and being congratulated by heroic music at the end. Sheriff Brody and company are not in that same boat. Neither is Jaws.


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If you find the death scenes in Jaws sentimental and less effective than Piranha, we can probably stop there.
Piranha fucked me the fuck up. In fact, when I first saw it- I hated it. It was so heartlessly brutal and people were just being racked up like flies on sticky paper. No sentimentality here. No drama here either. Leaving me completely free to actually feel the callous opportunism of the military and Dick Miller's character as they fed their customers to the killer fish. Of course, upon rewatching it I realized that's kind of what makes horror great. If the movie is smart. And it can claim to be shot well and have great music. And is there a person in the world who would disagree with Dick Miller > Murray Hamilton? His performance was downright bad, I'd say. He's the one making it the most clear that this isn't horror. "Huh, heh- I'm really nervous. God, I'm nervous. But we'll totally leave the beaches open and take our chances. Wow, is it me or am I nervous in here? I slur my sentences and sweat. Oh yeah, and if you have time, remember that I'm greedy and trying to get people killed. Did you see how nervous I was? I thought I hid it well." Hey, Spielberg, Dreyfus is giving his danger-alert speech to a different person.


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And a mother grieving over her dead son does not seem like "forced" sentimentality to me but a realistic portrayal.
One scene in a 2 hour movie, DR. One scene in a 2 hour movie. I will never change my official claim because of one 90-second scene in a 2-hour movie.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:13 AM   #24
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Just look at Spielberg himself. He's never made a horror film.
Out of curiosity what genre(s) would you consider SOMETHING EVIL and DUEL to fall under ?
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:25 AM   #25
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I never saw either.
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:47 PM   #26
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The other times, it is only to move Roy Scheider's story. And he is completely motivated by Drama. Everything he does is something about Drama. Must avenge son's attack. Must protect family. Must stand up for my community. Must keep the team together / strong. Must bond with my traveling mates.

And, did I not mention the fingers scene? A scene like that doesn't go in a horror film. Anywhere. Point blank: Spielberg didn't want this to be a horror film. He got the accolades and clout he did because this is a drama. The reason I don't like the film is because it's not a horror film. And a guy like that doesn't regret the Hollywoodizing of his film. He has to still be the most famous and popular film director in the history of filmmaking itself.
You are right. You always are. The 80% on this board that consider it a horror are seriously misguided because the horror stuff lasts at most "20 seconds" like you said.

Reluctant heroes and family matters never play out in horror films. They better go back and cut the scene of Andy making his mom breakfast in Child's Play.

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Rattled so badly that they are beyond laughing, standing triumphant, and being congratulated by heroic music at the end. Sheriff Brody and company are not in that same boat. Neither is Jaws.
Asia Argento laughs and cheers at the very end of Mother of Tears after she defeats the witch. I guess because she didn't act the same way as the characters in the end of Poltergeist - it is not a horror movie? Afterall, that is an example you have given for Jaws not being a horror film because they laugh and cheer at the end. Funny you will discredit the horror elements of the score but the heroic music at the very end of the movie qualifies as an example of how it is not horror.
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Old 07-26-2013, 03:21 PM   #27
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And, did I not mention the fingers scene? A scene like that doesn't go in a horror film. Anywhere. Point blank: Spielberg didn't want this to be a horror film. He got the accolades and clout he did because this is a drama. The reason I don't like the film is because it's not a horror film. And a guy like that doesn't regret the Hollywoodizing of his film. He has to still be the most famous and popular film director in the history of filmmaking itself.
are you serious? Regardless of what genre you think it fits into, to say that your opinion of the film is based on its classification is pretty shallow.
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Old 07-26-2013, 04:14 PM   #28
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Also, horror is not about what's more intense in theory. That is very much like saying the aesthetic, atmospheric, surreal, and gothic enhancements of styles were never important. That mood is of low inherent value to horror and graphicness is always key.
Yes and I discussed aesthetic and atmosphere through POV shots, camera placement at water level to increase claustrophobia and the bloody deaths but those are not important because there are only 1 or 2 scenes (from what you counted as there are more) and you disregard all of that because of 1 scene where a father and son imitate one another or because of something similar you saw in Spaceballs. (Is Jaws more closer in tone to Spaceballs than a horror film? If no, then why bring that movie even up?) The scene you are referring to was character development (showing what kind of relationship Brody had with his son) and can be put into any genre. What about the scenes between David Hemmings and Daria Nicolodi that you defended in the Profondo Rosso thread where they discuss gender politics and the silly scenarios with her temperamental vehicle? They obviously have no place in that movie either if a father and son bonding has no place in a horror movie.

I still don't know how Jaws has this "forced" sentimentality you referred to. Because Brody cares about his kids? Because he interacts with them? Because the men bonded over alcohol and scars? Most horror movies are not all horror for the whole running time. There are some tedious horror films where hardly anything happens at all but that doesn't mean they are not horror.

The point is you have your opinion. I have mine. The difference is I don't go into a poll telling the majority that if they think a movie is horror they are wrong (especially when said movie ends up on a lot of lists for best horror movies of all time).

As I said, everyone has different parameters for what they consider horror but in your mind, you have the right to tell others what their parameters need to be and I think that's pretty lame along with your unfounded dig about my age in another thread when I never referred myself to be young but younger.

Yes, DvD-fanatic-9, I find you quite cantankerous.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:09 PM   #29
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Yes, DvD-fanatic-9, I find you quite cantankerous.
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