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Old 11-24-2007, 11:06 PM   #196
Ash28M
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Originally Posted by KR~! View Post
Not to mention those people's embarrassingly bad taste. What kind of legit horror fan really thinks that they are overrated? Only casual fans or non horror fans may think that, but they don't know shit about real horror.

That's my unpopular opinion, even though it's 100% true.
Well each and every horror fan on this board has a different Top 10, so that would make each and everyone of us guilty of thinking at least a couple of classics are in general ranked higher then we think they should be. So it's not surprising that some of us would think one or both of these films are overrated. It doesn't mean we don't enjoy them, it just means we wouldn't rank them as high as others.

Saying that, I would agree that any "legit horror fan" should find at least some kind of appreciation of both these films, be it in either there technical aspects and or historical significance.

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Old 11-25-2007, 02:05 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Ash28M View Post
Well each and every horror fan on this board has a different Top 10, so that would make each and everyone of us guilty of thinking at least a couple of classics are in general ranked higher then we think they should be. So it's not surprising that some of us would think one or both of these films are overrated. It doesn't mean we don't enjoy them, it just means we wouldn't rank them as high as others.
of course, but..

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Saying that, I would agree that any "legit horror fan" should find at least some kind of appreciation of both these films, be it in either there technical aspects and or historical significance.
Yes. I mean anyone that thinks those films are garbage or do not get what all the fuss is about, I wouldn't call them a horror fan.

That would be like a self-proclaim film buff calling Stanley Kubrick a hack or something retarded like that.

Better yet, someone saying that they are a huge heavy metal fan, but they can't stand Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden. It just doesn't make any sense, if you don't like Sabbath and Maiden then you are not a metal fan period. They don't have to be your favorite bands ever or anything, but you can not be a metal fan AND completely not like them at all.
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Old 11-25-2007, 03:45 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Ash28M View Post

Saying that, I would agree that any "legit horror fan" should find at least some kind of appreciation of both these films, be it in either there technical aspects and or historical significance.


I respect what TCM did for the genre, and the example/inspiration it set forth - it just doesn't do it FOR ME, so I find it over rated (my opinion) as it doesn't do it FOR ME.

Everyone's tastes are different.
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:04 AM   #199
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But personal taste is something completely different from objective fact.

Sure, everyone on this board has a "different Top 10", but that doesn't really mean anything, right? I mean, someone who has Cannibal Campout in their personal Top 10 and who hates Halloween can argue on personal preference, but they can't argue in terms of objective comparison, right?

I have found that people base their entire perception of film almost entirely on what they "like" (subjective) and rarely ever view things from an objective (formalist) perspective. A subjectivist is one who will forever be involved in message board "X movie sucks/X movie is better" debates because by a subjectivists very nature, you can't judge art (in our case, horror films).

There aren't many people who are true formalists and divorce themselves from emotional attachments such as enjoyment and look at a film on all levels. Not everything is relative, in my opinion, and art can definitely be judged on many levels.

All these "debates" ever come down to is whether or not someone is subjective or formal in how they view film. Maybe everybody should just state their position and there will probably be a lot more understanding and less bickering
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Old 11-25-2007, 01:53 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by ThievingWinona View Post
But personal taste is something completely different from objective fact.

Sure, everyone on this board has a "different Top 10", but that doesn't really mean anything, right? I mean, someone who has Cannibal Campout in their personal Top 10 and who hates Halloween can argue on personal preference, but they can't argue in terms of objective comparison, right?

I have found that people base their entire perception of film almost entirely on what they "like" (subjective) and rarely ever view things from an objective (formalist) perspective. A subjectivist is one who will forever be involved in message board "X movie sucks/X movie is better" debates because by a subjectivists very nature, you can't judge art (in our case, horror films).

There aren't many people who are true formalists and divorce themselves from emotional attachments such as enjoyment and look at a film on all levels. Not everything is relative, in my opinion, and art can definitely be judged on many levels.

All these "debates" ever come down to is whether or not someone is subjective or formal in how they view film. Maybe everybody should just state their position and there will probably be a lot more understanding and less bickering
Can you let me know where the official "formalists" Mathematically calculated Horror Top Ten Is, based on a stringed objective formula? Is there a web site I can go to because I'm never seen it. Or do you mean your Top 10?
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Old 11-25-2007, 03:11 PM   #201
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Give these films time. I've watched TCM and actually laughed all the way through it - this was at a cinematic showing. The whole audience was having a great time.

I've also watched it - when in the right mood - and been disturbed by it. It's a magic movie really, so well realized in every way. Sometimes you need more than one or two goes through to finally settle with it - especially when a film comes with the burden of so much expectation due to what's been written about it. I say - give it another go.

Frankly, I feel the same about Last House on the Left. That can either be the most annoying film you ever saw, or a powerful horror flick - depending on circumstance.
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Old 11-25-2007, 03:27 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by ThievingWinona View Post
I have found that people base their entire perception of film almost entirely on what they "like" (subjective) and rarely ever view things from an objective (formalist) perspective.
BINGO!!!!!!!, this is exactly what i was tryin to do when picking the TOP 100 horror films of ALL-TIME........., i was being objective, as i have voiced 3 billion times, how much i hate both CARRIE and THE SHINNING, but i still felt they were among the BEST horror films made and rightly deserved thier place on the list.....
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Old 11-25-2007, 03:33 PM   #203
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Can you let me know where the official "formalists" Mathematically calculated Horror Top Ten Is, based on a stringed objective formula?
I don't know, you'd have to ask a mathematician.

I'm talking formalism in regards to judgements of art; aesthetics, people such as Clive Bell who believe in Significant Form.

For trying to look so intelligent with your sarcastic response, I'd expect you to at least be in the same ball park as to what I was talking about. I hope you didn't have to google search for your mathematical formula
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Old 11-25-2007, 04:05 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by ThievingWinona View Post
I don't know, you'd have to ask a mathematician.

I'm talking formalism in regards to judgements of art; aesthetics, people such as Clive Bell who believe in Significant Form.

For trying to look so intelligent with your sarcastic response, I'd expect you to at least be in the same ball park as to what I was talking about. I hope you didn't have to google search for your mathematical formula
Can you give me a Horror film Top 10, 20, 50 or whatever, based on "formalism in regards to judgements of art" or know anyone who has? I'm not being sarcastic I would actually be interested in seeing it.
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Old 11-25-2007, 04:30 PM   #205
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Can you give me a Horror film Top 10, 20, 50 or whatever, based on "formalism in regards to judgements of art" or know anyone who has? I'm not being sarcastic I would actually be interested in seeing it.
Sure, I could do up a list for you. But that's not the point. The point is that you wouldn't care and/or agree with it because you are a Subjectivist.

ANY type of list/ranking of anything is something that is inherently wrong to a subjectivist's point of view. Therefore, I could sit here and write up a list of 50 horror films for you, but it would be pointless because you would be biased against it from the get go. If your brain does not comprehend a formalist perspective, or at the very least the ability to recognize that it exists, then every conversation/debate is dead from the very beginning. It's apples and oranges.

A better question, and one well worth debating, is whether formalist thinking is valid. Engaging the question as to whether or not there is an underlying something to, in our case horror films, that cause them to be superior to others is what should be addressed. Some people call that "something" Standards. People like Clive Bell called it Significant Form. But even some of the staunchest subjectivist proponents (such as Kant) always fall back on formal elements to give their arguments.

Which is why I suggested everyone just post their perspective. There is nothing wrong with being a subjectivist, by any means. I happen to be a formalist, but just call it like it is. If I know you're a subjectivist, I'm not going to bother writing and responding to post after post of what amounts to nonsense because it just won't get us anywhere. If you're a formalist, then it's much easier to have a conversation/debate because we're both thinking on the same wave length, so to speak.

Maybe a bad example, but it's sort of like the battles between liberals and conservatives. Most people on both sides just can't comprehend why the other side thinks like they do. Therefore, almost every "debate" ends with nothing being accomplished. Some people just think in different ways and in my opinion at least, it's a waste of time to engage those who either can't recognize that fact, refuse to, or just have no conscious clue that that way of thinking even exists.

That's my very unpopular opinion, anyway (unpopular mainly because 99% of everyone on this planet thinks subjectively about almost everything be it politics, art, etc.)
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:19 PM   #206
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Sure, I could do up a list for you. But that's not the point. The point is that you wouldn't care and/or agree with it because you are a Subjectivist.

Why wouldn't I agree or care? The average person on these boards are not mindless gorehounds. Yes we have are favorites but most off us know what a good horror film is when we see one.

Coincidentally I was actually trying to figure out what my top 100 Horror films where are the other day and I used a combination of what's my favorite and what I think is technically the best 100 horror films.

It's not really in order but the top 30 pretty much are for me after that it's pretty much just a no order top 100 list. It probably needs some fine tuning as I'm sure I left some out. The point is would a objective list look that much different?

1.Carrie (1976)
2.The Exorcist (1973)
3.The Texas chainsaw massacre (1974)
4.The Shining (1980)
5.The Blair Witch Project (1999)
6.The Evil Dead (1981)
7.Suspiria (1977)
8.Black Christmas (1974)
9.Jaws (1975)
10.Alien (1979)
11.Psycho (1960)
12.Night of the Living Dead (1968)
13.The Wicker Man (1973)
14.The Thing (1982)
15.The Silence of the Lambs (1991)
16.Deep Red (1975)
17.Nosferatu (1922)
18.Tenebre (1982)
19.Frankenstein (1931)
20.An American Werewolf in London (1981)
21.Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1956)
22.Haute Tension (2003)
23.Dawn of the Dead (1978)
24.Hallowen (1978)
25.Thesis (1996)
26.Santa Sangre (1989)
27.Deathdream (1974)
28.Paperhouse (1988)
29.Audition (1999)
30.The Changeling (1980)
31.Opera (1987)
32.A Nightmare On Elm Steet (1984)
33.Phantasm (1979)
34.The Omen (1976)
35.The Body Snatcher (1945)
36.The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari (1920)
37.Eyes Without a Face (1960)
38.The Fly (1986)
39.The Haunting (1963)
40.I Walked With a Zombie (1943)
41.Cat people (1942)
42.King Kong (1933)
43.Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (1931)
44.The Devils Rejects (2005)
45.Maniac (1980)
46.The Devil's Backbone (2001)
47.The Descent (2005)
48.Inferno (1980)
49.Masque of the Red Death (1964)
50.Nosferatu the Vampyre (1979)
51.Poltergeist (1982)
52.Carnival of Souls (1962)
53.Creepshow (1982)
54.The Hills Have Eyes (1977)
55.Let's Scare Jessica to Death (1971)
56.Rosemary's Baby (1968)
57.Candyman (1992)
58.Cannibal Holocaust (1980)
59.Diabolique (1955)
60.Faust (1926)
61.Grindhouse (2007)
62.Spoorloos (1988)
63.The Innocents (1961)
64.The Birds (1963)
65.Freaks (1932)
66.The Unknown (1927)
67.Funny Games (1997)
68.The Eye (2002)
69.Ravenous (1999)
70.Stir of Echoes (1999)
71.May (2002)
72.Long Weekend (1978)
73.Night of the Demon (1957)
74.The Beyond (1981)
75.The Legend of Hell House (1973)
76.Re-Animator (1985)
77.Shaun of the Dead (2004)
78.The Wolf Man (1941)
79.Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer (1986)
80.Hellraiser (1987)
81.Witchfinder General (1968)
82.Village of the Damned (1960)
83.The Bad Seed (1956)
84.The Night of the Hunter (1955)
85.The Curse of Frankenstein (1957)
86.Onibaba (1964)
87.Kill, Baby... Kill! (1968)
88.Blind Beast (1969)
89.Peeping Tom (1960)
90.Blood and Black Lace (1965)
91.Bride of Frankenstein (1935)
92.Black Sunday (1960)
93.Island of Lost Souls (1933)
94.28 Days Later... (2002)
95.M (1931)
96.Martin (1977)
97.Frailty (2001)
98.Ringu (1998)
99.Jacob's Ladder (1990)
100.Session 9 (2001)

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Old 11-25-2007, 07:35 PM   #207
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The point is would a objective list look that much different?
These lists are always problematic. I don't think it's possible to write a definitive list really, or rather, I seriously think there is zero chance of the members of this board being able to agree on a top 30 - let alone a 100. And I do mean a zero chance.

On your list (top 30) I'd definately disagree with:

Carrie
Black Christmas
Jaws
Wicker Man
Silence of the Lambs
Thesis

Those are the ones I'd strike from a top 30. Others I'd debate. That's actually the fun of the thing.

As I've said countless times before, you can't start without first defining exactly what a horror movie is in the context of the poll/list. I still don't consider either Jaws or Silence of the Lambs to be horror films, let alone make a top 100 list. But we're all different. The problem with the previous poll was that the voting went on forever, and there was no definition, so some weird stuff got in there and there were no rules that could effectively compile a list. Just for me, anyway.
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Old 11-25-2007, 11:12 PM   #208
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Hey! I know what this thread needs! A good fist in its ass! YAY FUN!
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Old 11-26-2007, 12:36 AM   #209
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On your list (top 30) I'd definately disagree with:

Carrie
Black Christmas
Jaws
Wicker Man
Silence of the Lambs
Thesis

Those are the ones I'd strike from a top 30. Others I'd debate. That's actually the fun of the thing.
.
What about the Exorcist have you softened your stance on that?
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:09 AM   #210
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Historically I can appreciate its significance. Personally I wouldn't put it in, but I can't deny it has had some power. There are others I'd argue against too, but the ones listed were the ones I'd simply drop. Hell, I don't even own The Shining on DVD (saw it way back though).

Gialls are giallos, they're not horror flicks.
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