Halloween (1978) VS Black Christmas (1974) Round 4

[shape22]

I generally try to restrain myself in this debate since these two films are very personal for a lot of us. But some of the comments in this thread are making it tough for me. Halloween not much better than Final Exam? Friday the 13th has better characters? Black Christmas is a "perfect" film? Come again?

Halloween is a much better film than Black Christmas. I really enjoy Black Christmas and own 4 different DVD or Blu-ray versions. But at this site I think it's the most overrated horror film ever. The film is more schizophrenic than Billy. I know many of you have argued, sometimes eloquently, on behalf of the comedy. But I find virtually every scene with Mrs. Mac or Sergeant Nash painfully unfunny--with the fellatio scene being an absolute low-point. Those scenes bring the film to an absolute halt and dissipate the considerable tension that Clark builds. I sincerely believe Black Christmas would be vastly improved by trimming those scenes and some of Margot Kidder's antics. They're so ineffective and amateurish that I can't believe no one's made a fan edit to remove them.

Halloween is arguably the most influential film in the history of the genre. That's not always a true indicator of quality. But in this case I think it is. It's a perfect film from the opening credits through the fade-out. In my mind, the original Dawn Of The Dead is the only legitimate competition for Halloween.

I'll get off my soapbox now. And I apologize in advance for the crankier than usual tone of this post.

[Chomp]

Originally Posted by shape22

I generally try to restrain myself in this debate since these two films are very personal for a lot of us. But some of the comments in this thread are making it tough for me. Halloween not much better than Final Exam? Friday the 13th has better characters? Black Christmas is a "perfect" film? Come again?

Yeah...I was "lawl"-ing hard at some of those comments. I wasn't sure if they were actually being genuine or just trying to incite a reaction, because anyone with even the slightest comprehension on cinema as a craft can understand why Halloween is held in such high regard. Saying you enjoy Black Christmas more than Halloween is one thing,... but degrading the film itself as an average slasher is downright insulting.

Originally Posted by shape22

Halloween is arguably the most influential film in the history of the genre. That's not always a true indicator of quality. But in this case I think it is. It's a perfect film from the opening credits through the fade-out. In my mind, the original Dawn Of The Dead is the only legitimate competition for Halloween.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by shape22

But I find virtually every scene with Mrs. Mac or Sergeant Nash painfully unfunny--with the fellatio scene being an absolute low-point.

Aw man...I almost agreed with your whole post. These scenes are classic Bob Clark...dirty little sexual innuendos. I laugh hysterically at these scenes. I always put a downgrade on Black Christmas due to its lack of nudity (an attribute I find essential in slasher films), but I tell ya, Margot Kidder spelling the word fellatio is pretty fucken hot....not a pigtailed P.J. Soles hot, but still pretty damn stellar.

[shape22]

Originally Posted by Chomp

Aw man...I almost agreed with your whole post. These scenes are classic Bob Clark...dirty little sexual innuendos.

No doubt Chomp. They're perfectly representative of Clark's style of comedy. And I generally like Clark's comedy. But what works in Porky's doesn't work for me in Black Christmas. The tonal shifts are too jarring.

Halloween benefits from some sly humor, like in the "Hey Lonnie..." scene. But I'd classify what Clark does in Black Christmas as outright comedy. Doug McLure and Kidder are mugging the camera like The Bowery Boys in a couple of those scenes.

Totally agree about the nudity. That always helps, doesn't it?

[Vortex]

Halloween a perfect film? Give me a break. It's not even Carpenter's best film, let alone a perfect one. Looking at your avatar though, that says it all. It's also highly amusing seeing someone talking about cinema as a craft, and then saying they downgrade a certain film due to a lack of nudity. And no, I don't think Black Christmas is perfect, but most films aren't. Far more effective than Halloween though, that's for sure.

[Matt89]

I dunno, I think the comedy works wonderfully in Black Christmas. These are sorority girls, university students, they have to have some character to them. People joke around, people are sarcastic, he gives these characters distinct personalities. Just because a character is in a horror film doesn't mean that everything has to be serious and scary all the time. You could be joking around and the next minute BANG! You're dead. I think the humor mixed with horror adds an element of realism to the film that is absent from Halloween.

For how often the comedy doesn't work for some people in Black Christmas, that's how I feel about the 'scare' scenes in Halloween. They're set-up very well but I'm sorry, Halloween is just not scary anymore. It's well made, there's tension, but scary? Gimme a break. There are still parts in Black Christmas that are utterly terrifying. That's why I think it's a more EFFECTIVE film. The phonecalls are horrific and Billy is a complete psychopath. He's fucking insane and that's what I think makes the movie more effective. Halloween is more polished and professional-looking but Black Christmas I think is still far more effective because the scare scenes are actually STILL scary.

(There is one scene in Halloween though that I do believe is still completely effective. It's when Tommy looks out the window and you see Michael carrying Annie's body around the house. That shot combined with the music cue on the TV works amazingly well.)

I love Halloween don't get me wrong, but Black Christmas works better as a horror film I think.

~Matt

[Matt89]

Originally Posted by Paff

No, I'm sorry, the answer we were looking for here was Carrie.
Carrie. No points awarded there.



I do like Black Christmas more, and turn to it far more often than Halloween. Halloween always left me with a meh feeling. There's nothing wrong with it, per se, I just find it fairly average as far as slashers go. I even think that some of the films that Halloween spawned in the great slasher craze of the 80s are better.

The best thing Halloween has going for it is the setting, that is, the idea that the suburbs are not necessarily safe. But that alone isn't enough to propel it to the upper echelon of horror movies, in my book.

YES! YES! I've said this so many times haha. Carrie is the greatest horror film ever! I tell people that ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

~Matt

[Paff]

I've defended the humor in Black Christmas many times here (not apologized for, but defended, as I genuinely feel it works...well, maybe not the Mrs. Mack scenes, but everything else). Many others have too, saying it breaks the tension. True of course, but here's another good reason for it: Black Christmas is a total deconstruction of the most sacred Western holiday. Everything that Christmas is SUPPOSED to be, Black Christmas is NOT. Obviously there's the murder and horror, but even the "Ho ho ho shit" early on from the completely drunken frat-boy Santa. We've seen Christmas deconstructed a million times since (and reconstructed in Clark's A Christmas Story through the eyes of a young boy), but I can't recall an earlier film that straight-up attacks the holiday so directly.

Not that Halloween ignores the traditions of the holiday it re-creates either though. That is certainly another strength of the film. Even if it's origins are dark, Halloween has turned into a costumes-and-candy celebration in modern times. Carpenter's film does show that there are real ghosts and horror in the world.

If it sounds like I'm praising both movies, it's because I am. The tone in this thread has gotten a bit heated, and it's kinda dumb because we all love horror movies. And movies aren't sports; there's no scoreboard to prove which one is better. It's all subjective of what a particular viewer likes and what he doesn't like. Even my recommendation of Carrie as horror's all-time best film is tongue-in-cheek, as a lot of people here will vehemently disagree with that. They're wrong, of course, but free to disagree.

So keep the discussion going, talk about Fellatio (the new exchange), Mrs. Mack's brandy (not MD 20/20), PJ Soles' pigtails and boobs, or gravestones on beds. But in the end, it's all just movies.

Oh, and I still like Black Christmas more. Nyaah.

[Erick H.]

This is a really hard call.In terms of it's influence HALLOWEEN certainly has inspired more trends in the genre.It is WIDELY known and heavily referenced.Michael Meyers is a cottage industry,a horror icon.The late Mustapha Akkad (who died tragically in a terrorist attack while attending a wedding,Rest In Peace) said he "LOVED that guy",he made him a millionaire ! HALLOWEEN is like McDonalds or Coca Cola,even if you don't like it,you know about it.I think it's a great film !

Saying that....

Black Christmas hit a whole lot of the same elements four years prior to HALLOWEEN.Holiday setting,check,POV killer,check,escape from the asylum,check,creepy phone calls,check,Police manhunt,check,ambiguous ending,check.The difference is BLACK CHRISTMAS plays it as more of a psychological thriller,it plays with the characters personalities,secrets and flaws .It slowly ratchets up the tension until it overflows at the climax.It works beautifully ! And it predates HALLOWEEN,very likely influenced it.

I cannot (and would not !) dispute HALLOWEEN's iconic status.It MADE John Carpenter,then a promising young tyro with a couple of nifty films under his belt,into a NAME,a genre icon.It made Jamie Lee Curtis a scream queen and reminded horror buffs that Donald Pleasnce was horror gold.It's a wonderful film....

But BLACK CHRISTMAS to me is the scarier and more disturbing film.It gets under my skin in a way that Halloween doesn't.HALLOWEEN deserves it's laurels but the lesser know shocker (Rest In Peace Bob Clark,you left us to soon.) is the scarier film.It makes me look over my shoulder.Michael Meyers almost seems like an old friend,but Billy is the guy I pray doesn't have my number !

[Mutilated Prey]

Originally Posted by Paff

Mrs. Mack's brandy (not MD 20/20),

It might as well be Guy

[Chomp]

Originally Posted by Vortex

It's also highly amusing seeing someone talking about cinema as a craft, and then saying they downgrade a certain film due to a lack of nudity.

I think its highly fucking amusing that you lack basic reading skills...

Originally Posted by Chomp

I always put a downgrade on Black Christmas due to its lack of nudity (an attribute I find essential in slasher films)

In terms of slasher films, Black Christmas' lack of nudity, I didn't like. S-L-A-S-H-E-R film. It's an essential ingredient to the slasher formula. I don't really know why this guy jumps down my throat...its my only complaint I have with the movie, and its a small one at that!

And Carpenter was at his best with Halloween (76-82 is Carpenter at his directorial prime)...he channeled only the best attributes of Argento and Hitchcock for it.

Originally Posted by Matt89

Halloween is more polished and professional-looking

That's the way I see it.

Billy's voice terrifying? Ha!...perhaps. I always laugh when Billy calls. "I'll stick my tongue up your pretty pussy!"...I always love the part when Billy is ranting on the phone with Barb, and he just ends the call with "I'm going to kill you." then hangs up. I thought that was the creepiest part in the movie...that and his demented laugh as he rocks Clare back and forth.

I've seen both so many times neither of them terrify me in the slightest anymore. But the Myer's mask gave me nightmare's as a kid, serious "I need to sleep in my parents room" nightmares...that scene where he's standing outside Laurie's window by the clothesline, in broad day light, accompanied by that real low, slow "gloomy" part in Carpenter's score just played me like a goddamned puppet...terrified me to death, great film-making right there.

[Mutilated Prey]

Yeah, you pour that fucking beer on his head!

[Body Boy]

This thread is hella hilarious.

I just want to say, nobody is disputing what Halloween has accomplished in the world of cinema. It has done a great deal. But just because a film is famous and influential doesn't mean it wins over another film in a subjective view of better or worse.

I do enjoy reading each post and seeing which people put effort in explaining their side and which simply attack others for their 'obviously incorrect' stance. o.O

Intrigue.

[Vortex]

Originally Posted by Chomp

I think its highly fucking amusing that you lack basic reading skills...

In terms of slasher films, Black Christmas' lack of nudity, I didn't like. S-L-A-S-H-E-R film. It's an essential ingredient to the slasher formula. I don't really know why this guy jumps down my throat...its my only complaint I have with the movie, and its a small one at that!

Please. When was Black Christmas made again? Yeah, 1974. The slasher film wasn't even a true sub-genre back then, so your argument about it being "essential" is already moot in regard to this particular film. And my initial comment still stands. You talk about film as a craft and then go on to downgrade something for a lack of nudity. Oh, but it's essential! Whatever.

[shape22]

As much as it would help Black Christmas to eliminate Halloween's enormous popularity and influence from the equation, it can't be done if you're trying to OBJECTIVELY argue the relative merits of both films. I don't believe that Halloween's stature automatically makes it a better film than Black Christmas. But the vast disconnect between Halloween's impact and Black Christmas's is a factor that must be considered, just like the other facets of both films that we're comparing.

I believe Halloween is a substantially better film for the personal reasons I cited above (and in many other threads on this topic in the past). But I also think those arguments are bolstered by some cold, hard facts. First and foremost, Halloween IMMEDIATELY inspired an entire sub-genre. And its success was almost entirely a product of word of mouth. It wasn't afforded a muscular ad campaign or a wide initial release. It became one of the most successful low budget films of all-time because the public embraced it.

Truth be told, I frequently prefer the underdog film in debates like this one. But it's hard to argue that personal opinions are a better measure of a film's effectiveness WITH THE GENERAL PUBLIC than the commercial success or failure of a film--or a film's legacy or lack thereof. So although it's easy to argue passionately and eloquently that Black Christmas works better for you, it doesn't erase the fact that Halloween caused a sensation, spawned a slew of copycats, and created a merchandising empire. Black Christmas didn't even make a ripple at the time of its release. Again, it's not the end of the argument. But it's a part of it that can't, and shouldn't, be ignored.

One more point before I butt out for good. Halloween's immense popularity is a double-edged sword. Yes, it lends some gravity to the argument that, for most people, it's a superior film to Black Christmas. But it also diluted Carpenter's film, the characters, the score, and the mythology that made the original film so effective when it was new. A score of similar films followed immediately in its wake. And many of them aped Halloween's structure and set pieces so blatantly that it made aspects of Halloween over-familiar to viewers who didn't catch it before they saw the copycats. It became the template for hundreds of other films--some of which many of you saw before the original Halloween. I will never be able to separate Halloween from the enormous emotional impact it had on me when I first saw it. But I suspect it was already played out for some of you before you ever saw it in its entirety.

I truly believe that over-familiarity is a significant factor in the arguments that Halloween isn't scary--and that Michael as a character isn't as frightening as Billy. It's important to remember that the public (and many prominent critics) immediately anointed it as one of the scariest films ever when it arrived in 1978. But that was before the dolls, the mass-produced masks, the sequels, the soundtrack albums, etc. When I was a kid the most prevalent adult Halloween masks you'd see in stores were the Frankenstein monster and Tor Johnson. By the time the mid-80s rolled around all kinds of Halloween merchandise was on store shelves in October. And once people start dressing up as a previously terrifying killer the edge is gone. It happened to Michael and it happened to Freddy. There's none of that saturation factor with Black Christmas. It gets to remain elusive, un-hyped, and menacing.

I promise I'm done now.

[othervoice1]

I was late in seeing Black Christmas (just within the last few years) - I liked it - but wasn't as good as I expected. Maybe if I had seen it years ago I would have a greater appreciation for it - but my vote goes to Halloween which I can never watch too many times.