Vinegar Syndrome - New Genre Label

Discussion in 'General' started by MorallySound, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. Steel76

    Steel76 Well-Known Member

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    So... you prefer worse PQ? :D
    Blu-Ray is not flimsier, it's actually more durable, since it has scratch resistant coating. And there was a lot of botched releases on DVD as well. It's nothing to do with the tech, it's just some labels that are bad at QC.
    There's an insane amount of movies released every month on the format, and maybe only a handful of titles, that might have a problem.
    Theatrical print did NOT look like DVD though. The prints didn't have low 480p resolution and compression artifacts.
    Blu-Ray and UHD looks more like a theatrical presentation, with better resolved details, filmgrain etc. The fine details we finally get to see on Blu-Ray, was even more noticeable in the theaters, unless the projector was really badly out of focus.
    Sure the jump from VHS to DVD was huge, but when I went from DVD to HD-DVD (and later Blu-Ray), my jaw dropped to the floor.

    I don't know what screen size you got, or what resolution your TV have.
    But on a big 1080p/4K screen and projectors, DVD looks crappy in comparison.

    You sure it's not more about the nostalgia for the format? Because that I could understand ;)
     
  2. Zombie Dude

    Zombie Dude Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    scott is definitely talking about nostalgia here as all the points you make are correct. If you like dvd then that's fine, but some of the points scott made are seriously uninformed.
     
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  3. hots4

    hots4 Dogs In White

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    I think one of the differences I noticed from DVD to Blu ray is how you got there, I went from DVD to upscaled DVD on HD output to Blu Ray. If I'd have gone from DVD and 480 outputs to Blu ray 1080p outputs I would certainly have seen more of a difference that I did with the middle ground. I have to say I was very impressed with the DVD upscaling which kept me away from Blu for a while. I only jumped once I could get a region free blu ray player and to be fair that was always going to be the point I dived in.
     
  4. scott71670

    scott71670 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I like crappier looking film. I LOATHE digital projection and crystal clear imagery; it takes the patina of magic of the film-as-experience itself from me. I like my vintage technicolor to have that little greenish tinge, my film prints to look like the ones that actually were shown in a theater (cigarette burns, mild first run usage and all). And right now I doubt the QC is barely caveat emptor in every aspect of life so Im sticking with dvd. I think the medium has exceeded what filmmakers were envisioning, and by that I mean that the original visions of many filmmakers were not meant to be seen this clearly. I have never seen a movie pre 2000 onscreen that looked as "minutiaed" as blu ray. Even costuming was dependent on sometimes using brighter schemes knowing it was being filmed on 16 going to 35 (hello Raffine!), and on a design end I think some filmmakers were utilising schemes based on film limitation that blu ray isnt flattering enough for. It is an overhead fluorescent on a world meant to be side lit. I have never left a musical humming the special effects (although it came close with the Met's new production of Der Gotterdamerrung).

    The thing I am talking about is not technological, though: it is charm. A lot of digital ruins its own spell for me. It ruins the enchantment of the medium with its aspirations to over detailing, and the way the image sometimes, like... goes jerky into video range with sudden movement ocasionally throws my attention off. And thats happened in theaters.

    The argument is the same in stop motion vs cgi. One looks more real, but would Harryhausen films be better if replaced with cgi? My eye has been trained to see film as one way. I am no big Tarantino fan, but was surprised recently to see he shares a lot of my point of view. Dont get me wrong: I am not against blu for the general public and what it does especially for preservation. It just is so not for me.

    And i have a hand held blu ray player named Wilson that I use to watch blus on with a vhs preservation society sticker on, and I have my old beat up crappy plasma tv to watch my dvds and vhs on. I love the tv as it has a burn line in it for 4:3 that when I watch in 1:86 or 2:40 puts a thin and light black line down the left side so I already have my own permanent hair in the projector.

    I just like my movies like my men: older, a little scuffed up, a little used, and difficult to explain to my friends.
    For me reality is sharp enough, the movies should be blunted. And exeunt.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  5. baggio

    baggio Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    :D
     
  6. Steel76

    Steel76 Well-Known Member

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    Are you kidding me? :D
    35mm on a gigantic movie screen, is much clearer than a regular Blu-Ray. A 35mm print basically have a resolution of 4K

    What about those 65-70mm movies, which is basically 8K of resolution.
    2001: A Space Odyssey was shot on 65mm, and only 4K and above, can finally resolve all the small details in the sets and models, that was still hard to see on blu-ray.
    You can read all the text on buttons etc. in the ships. I doubt Kubrick wanted all of the finedetails on the sets and ships, to be eliminated by a low res format.

    And 16mm going to 35mm??
    Mostly very low budget movies was shot on 16mm, and blown up to 35.

    Halloween, Jaws, Alien, Friday the 13th, Elm Street, Psycho etc. etc. are all shot on 35mm.

    You want something shot on film, close to DVD resolution? The go with 8mm.

    But, if you prefer DVD, then continue to watch the format. But don't tell me the filmmakers wanted their movies to look like crap. :D
     
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  7. scott71670

    scott71670 Well-Known Member

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    A decent filmmaker knew what they were working with at that time and knew in the visuals what the original film stock images were supposed to convey and in some films the digital image corrupts that to my particular eye. In the same way a certain outfit is cut flatteringly, film stock often was kinder to the flaws. My view is like how film noir accidentally happened: what the director couldnt afford he shoved in the dark and eventually it became a style of seeing. But my eye has a connotation that the filmic experience is just as intertwined with archaeology as art. So many times the types of films that are my most loved revisits really were working exactly with that concept, especially in regards to design, sets, effects, makeup, etc. But I totally love the looks of the film stocks of the time they were made and my eye believes in a different look in a movie based on what the movie was and the time it was made, as well as what the film looked like in a culture to its majority of viewership. Plus, I will TOTALLY COP TO MY PREFERRED FILMS BEING SOMETHING THAT SHOULDVE BEEN RELEASED ON 8MM. Do I want to see a Paul Blaisedell miniature in 4k? I am terrified to see the crop duster greenscreen from North by Northwest in hi def. A wire shot from The Mysterians? The makeup lines in Fulci's Zombie? Will Chesty Morgan movies be seen the same without the scratches? The pre digital Greedo from Star Wars? For a good example to the relevance of this concept look at how the digital video devalued the film makeup industry's prior skillset overnight.
    My eye prefers to look at everyone in evening setting and not across the mattress at 6 am. So youre never going to convince me otherwise. I dont need to pay $8 extra to see the zits. Its why I cannot abide the post digital Lucas touchups in Star Wars and THX 1138. I see your point and TOTALLY AGREE but to my eye it just looks tampered to my asthete.
    I like a crappier image. I regularly attended film fests that took pride in showing crappy battered old prints and we gave standing ovations when the films snapped and have walked out on digital screenings of old films. Sometimes filmmakers do things that are not meant to be seen, right doen to getting a film stock to help your vision. I love seeing violent films uncut but even there, let me demonstrate in principle what I mean: sometimes those scenes were never meant to be in the final product. Overly gruesome scenes were placed by directors in prints specifically to be removed by the MPAA in order that the scenes they wanted left in wouldnt be excised. Theres all kinds of things right down to image that directors know won't be seen and makes concessions to image and the times. In regards to Kubrick, if everything needed to be purist you would also have to watch the record store rape in Clockwork on slow motion. Sometimes the attention to detail is exactly because it would be blurred, and sometimes it was just for the actors to hone in on. It is a debate rather than an answerable. It is just that I prefer dwelling in gaslight to your halogen world. My POV is like film noir. It sees in something that doesnt exist except by accident, much like film noir never existed. I am cursive. You are email.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  8. X-human

    X-human I ate my keys

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    You reference Kubrick. Kubrick hired people to scout out all theaters to make sure they had the proper setup and maintenance to screen his films. He had all theatrical prints that came back from a theater, that would routinely be sent on the next theater, sent instead to him where he had a team examining the elements to see if they needed to be replaced, and then replaced or shipped approved prints on to the next theater. When Criterion put Dr. Strangelove on LD her personally examined all the existing film elements and put together a print selecting scenes and even shots from the best elements.

    You can't reference filmmaker's choice of film stocks being paramount to the quality of presentations and then state that's why you prefer them in 480i/p resolution. One does not equate the other. Otherwise Kubrick would have just sent the LD to theaters.

    Your complaints about SFX work not being up to snuff sometimes ignores the work of SFX teams whose efforts are up to snuff. You're lumping in gaffers with no business doing SFX who are assign to pull out an unsuited shade of lipstick to make a cut mark haphazardly on an arm with actors spending hours in the makeup chair while someone like Rick Baker, who worked directly with the cinematographer, perfected a cut so that it worked as intended.

    You can't speak eloquently about how Film Noir cheaply hide sets and ignore when Kubrick brought in NASA equipment to use candle light on 70mm in Barry Lyndon to pull out as much as he could.

    The wire effects. The matte lines. The pimples. This is the human condition. This is cinema.
     
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  9. scott71670

    scott71670 Well-Known Member

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    On the fx you misunderstood me. Back in the day you put in extra gore hoping it would be cut out that was extraneous to what the film actually would be. It wasnt inferior fx, it was filmed intended to be cut from the film. You had your final print and you knew the MPAA was going to have to slice off something to feel like they made you pay for an R rating so you shot film never intended to be in the print that was a little over the top from r ratings guidelines to manipulate the MPAA into cutting that bit instead ofwhat you really desired to keep because otherwise theyd slash you down to something close to PG13 if you just sumbitted a print that you had kept hewed closer to an R rating. It was nothing to do with quality under the filmmaker's scrutiny, it had to do with manipulating ratings boards via pre emptive fakeout. Everybody did it in the 80s. You had to in order to make a horror film that wasn't considered weak. Even people like Savini and Baker had to do that. Actually especially, because it was insurance that their work wasn't completely removed from the films. The extra gore footage we find that was removed from those films I love that they're included now, but that stuff was shot literally with the foreknowledge pre video that it was never going to be seen. They are cuts done in frames rather than scenes usually.

    So I couldve been misunformed on blu ray. OK. I was misinformed for three years once and buddy that only happened because I slept with people I falsely assumed were the judges. Still dont prefer them. My aesthete is fully baked in, and has been quite useful to me actually
    In both consumption and output. And as far as the human condition is, I gave up being human ages ago. Dirty habit, leaving the inside of the walls to oh whats that word....soashullizze (think thats the spelling), almost corrected my hunchback, and then that "daylight" you.... people all seem to love. Shudders.

    But to be back on topic I am buying this months titles from vin syn. Theyre not dvds but so what. Im not gonna die from it. And Im not going to bemoan it either. I just resonate more with dvd images. Sometimes i dont watch a disc for years and I have no email for replacements, and a disproportuonate amount Ive really wanted to purchase has needed to be recalled in blu ray lately. I dont have time to be the beta test and screen these the moment they arrive. Its nervewracking.


    And my one final unpopular opinion is: I cannot stand Kubrick. I have seen all his films and find them to be overindulged and condescending. And I think poor HAL is the hero of 2001. Poor little consciousness being shut off like a calculator after being given humanity by the monolith frequency.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  10. Paff

    Paff Super Moderator

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    We've had this discussion umpteen times, but all I'll add at this point was remembering how "old" movies looked when I was a kid. This was before Blu-Ray, before DVD, hell, before VHS. When you watched Frankenstein ('31), you saw it on some late night broadcast, and it looked terrible. I always just assumed that was normal, that older technology was just not up to the standards of the day (which again, were pretty piss-poor at that time anyway). I was going through some book, and it had a glossy still from the film, and I just remembered being so shocked at the sharp detail of the picture. "Frankenstein doesn't look this good!"

    We now know, that that crisp still was indeed the way Frankenstein looked as it came out of the camera in 1931, and that's the way I like to watch my movies now.
     
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  11. X-human

    X-human I ate my keys

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    Green Jellö Sux!

    Oh man, I gotta get that. They suddenly came back into my brain a few years ago and I put them in my playlist. In fact Obey the Cow God was just on last time I was in my car.

    What did I misunderstand when you said:
    ?

    There's a lot more to unpack but I recognize this isn't the topic of the thread, so let me just point out that when discussing the recent DVD only Dinosaur Island in his last Q&A Fred Olen Ray stated he is now considering using Blu-ray for SD content (which Vinegar Syndrome is also getting into) because of the higher bit-rate it affords: (link is to this point of the Q&A)


    Even SD content benefits on Blu-ray over constrictive DVDs. And of course early in the Q&A he talks about all the effort he puts into the Haunting Fear Blu-ray and how happy he is with the results. And that how well it was made was not apparent on home video until now. He's not focusing on the short comings and instead is proud, rightfully, of what did work well and can now be best seen on Blu-ray.

    Blu-ray has been around for over a decade. Beta testing it is not. I know that's not specifically what you said, but to specifically address that: while a Blu-ray is going to have the occasional fault, so is DVD (or any film for that matter). That's just the reality of the world. We don't have perfect DVD production either. And if anything DVD errors are going unreported and therefore unfixed because distributors are more focused on getting Blu-ray's right for finicky HD audiences.
     
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  12. Paff

    Paff Super Moderator

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    Watched a couple of older VS titles over the weekend.

    The Human Tornado. OK, I liked Dolemite, but The Human Tornado is just a million times more fun. It's everything you want in a blaxploitation movie. I nearly lost it on the "instant replay" scene. But yeah, this is a movie that knows its place (I.E., no long boring dialogue-heavy scenes), keeps things moving, and still juggles a couple of different plots. Some absolutely terrible martial arts, and some surprisingly good martial arts (one of the actors was a US champion), and great rhymes from Dolemite. I wanna go back and watch Dolemite one more time before I give the Netflix biopic a watch, but I can say right now that The Human Tornado will be one of those regular-rotation movies for me when I just want to smile for 90 minutes.

    Let's Get Physical. Fairly typical porn, husband and wife are having intimacy issues so they explore their sexuality in an attempt to revive their sex life. In other words, two people fuck a lot of other people. A lot. But it was written by star Hyapatia Lee, and I did sense a little feminine viewpoint of the story. Plus, I think Hyapatia Lee really enjoyed her on-screen sex, and wasn't just "going through the motions". There's a really great girl/girl scene with her midway through the movie. Only complaint is a seemingly tacked on scene at the end with two characters we never met, I guess to pad the running length. I picked up a few of Lee's other movies at the sale last month, I'll definitely be watching them all, might even see which ones I don't have yet.
     
  13. satans-sadists

    satans-sadists Ghost

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    The Human Tornado is my favorite Rudy Ray Moore movie. Has the best replay value and the Vinegar Syndrome release even offers such unexpected bonus features as a German dubbed version along with an Ernie Hudson interview.
     
  14. satans-sadists

    satans-sadists Ghost

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  15. satans-sadists

    satans-sadists Ghost

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  16. zbinks

    zbinks Beset by Creatures of the Deep

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    https://vinegarsyndrome.com/collect...thing-halfway-to-black-friday-flash-pre-order

    https://vinegarsyndrome.com/collections/frontpage/products/six-string-samurai-vsu

    https://vinegarsyndrome.com/collect...eases-halfway-to-black-friday-flash-pre-order
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
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  17. CPT HOOK

    CPT HOOK Well-Known Member

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    Excited for Surf II. I saw a midnight screening of it at the CineFamily in LA around 2015 or so.

    Also excited for the TV movie boxset, although I wish they chose something more obscure than Are You In The House Alone, which Scream Factory already released on DVD.
     
  18. zbinks

    zbinks Beset by Creatures of the Deep

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    From The Official Vinegar Syndrome Fan Group:

     
  19. Katatonia

    Katatonia Hellbound Heart

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    WOW, Surf II?!??? Awesome! :eek::eek::eek: That's been high up on my want list for ages. I can finally retire my ancient VHS.

    and...
    I ordered the Six-String Samurai UHD (with the subscriber discount code). I should be done already then... since everything else is already included with my 2021 subscription. Simple, I love it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
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  20. maybrick

    maybrick Well-Known Member

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    I remember seeing Six String Samurai nearly 30 years when it released on VHS and liked it. But since I didn’t remember it until just now I think I can give it a pass. I’ve been interested in seeing Surf II since reading a book on punks in movies, but watching a clip on YouTube right now leads me with the feeling that its just going to be a bad unfunny comedy that I’ll wish that I hadn’t bought.
     

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